Originally posted by BroInChrist:1. There's really no chicken and egg dilemma. The chicken logically came first.
2. If there's nothing, then how can something come from nothing?
3. It does not follow that for there to be an unchanging entity requires there to be complete stillness or no thought.
4. No one is denying the reality of suffering or happiness. But if there is no self, then who is suffering? Or should we say, like AEN suggested, "what" is suffering?
hmm, speechless.....chicken came from egg too(we pro cycle and continuum). of course to u all, chicken/god came first. perhaps in a Mind and matter dilemma. the chicken are more mental, while the egg are more mindless like matter. then mind over matter. although mindless is not a bad thing in a sense. i thought of something, but rather keep it.
the conversation had been misunderstood. i didn't say there's nothing. i say IF there's a "before" in change/existence, there's nothing. i am refuting there's a 'before'.
to us we say 相由心生 境隨心轉 things are animated by the thinking mind. maybe the 'matter' body can remain unchange to the naked eye for an advance beings(Buddha/bodhisattvas), but to lower life form, devas included, change/karma is inevitable. when we see a matter like a rock is unchanging, but in a microscopic sense, it's atoms are changing/vibrating every split second. Buddha already discovered this 2500-3000 yrs ago. even when Buddha see a very still mind, but when zoom into the microscopic of the mind, He saw that each thoughts are not the same, they are continuum. for the rock, the atoms vibrates, while for the mind, thoughts come and go. there's no complete stillness, hence we reject eternalism.
Buddha had expound the 4 Noble truth as anwser. cause and effect of suffering and the cause and effect of true(no mere) happiness. so suffering is part of the noble truth. i always prefer not-self than no-self. don't fall into nullism, ya.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html
the not-self and or emptiness doctrine(and so is illusiveness and moderation 空å�‡ä¸) is teaching to shed suffering. in lay term, don't be selfish, be selfless.
read this to explain "who or what" is suffering?http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/465175
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Originally posted by sinweiy:hmm, speechless.....chicken came from egg too(we pro cycle and continuum). of course to u all, chicken/god came first. perhaps in a Mind and matter dilemma. the chicken are more mental, while the egg are more mindless like matter. then mind over matter. although mindless is not a bad thing in a sense. i thought of something, but rather keep it.
the conversation had been misunderstood. i didn't say there's nothing. i say IF there's a "before" in change/existence, there's nothing. i am refuting there's a 'before'.
to us we say 相由心生 境隨心轉 things are animated by the thinking mind. maybe the 'matter' body can remain unchange to the naked eye for an advance beings(Buddha/bodhisattvas), but to lower life form, devas included, change/karma is inevitable. when we see a matter like a rock is unchanging, but in a microscopic sense, it's atoms are changing/vibrating every split second. Buddha already discovered this 2500-3000 yrs ago. even when Buddha see a very still mind, but when zoom into the microscopic of the mind, He saw that each thoughts are not the same, they are continuum. for the rock, the atoms vibrates, while for the mind, thoughts come and go. there's no complete stillness, hence we reject eternalism.
Buddha had expound the 4 Noble truth as anwser. cause and effect of suffering and the cause and effect of true(no mere) happiness. so suffering is part of the noble truth. i always prefer not-self than no-self. don't fall into nullism, ya.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html
the not-self and or emptiness doctrine(and so is illusiveness and moderation 空å�‡ä¸) is teaching to shed suffering. in lay term, don't be selfish, be selfless.read this to explain "who or what" is suffering?http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/465175
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Even you conceded that a "Mind" of some sort exists in a beginingless way, so what mind/matter dilemma are you talking about? Anyway, the Bible tells us that God created living things to reproduce after their kind. The answer is given, it contradicts no logic or anything that we know for a fact.
Before time was created, we do not speak of "before" chronologically, but logically. Thus an eternal God who is timeless created the universe, at the moment of creation, time/space/matter was born. Thus the first three words of the Bible "In the beginning" is a most scientific phrase!
I doubt that Buddha was talking about atoms back then. Anyway, IMO there is nothing noble about recognising the fact of suffering (no offense intended please). I don't think anyone would deny there is suffering. The issue is whether there is a solution to it, and whether the solution is adequate.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:4. No, 'what is suffering' is simply saying 'who is suffering' in another way. My point is that there is no 'what' or 'who' behind suffering. When suffering arises, there is only suffering without sufferer. Since Buddha never said "You suffer" or "He suffer" or "I suffer" (other than as conventional speech) but "suffering arises", the correct question should be asked then: what is the causes and conditions in which suffering arises?
Everything arises through causes and conditions, without agency/controller/perceiver/experiencer.
Sorry but the idea of suffering without sufferer is illogical. It's like being married but there's no husband and wife!
Originally posted by sinweiy:
sound made up frictional to me.anyway, that in Buddhism, is only microscopical, we also have smaller or middle or greater "end days" on earth. greater "end days" is when hell, and the all lower realms are ended. like in a person that's birth, old age, illness and death. the earth also undergo birth, old age, illness and death, but we call it ���空. 20 years a person live in the birth stage, and another 20 for old age stage and another 20 for illness and finally another 20 for death stage. each 20 years belong to the middle end days. and the end of 1 year is the smaller end days. then we magnify that on earth, earth or the universe also have the 20+20+20+20 kalpas/age, but in a longer period.
but even this greater "end days" on earth is microscopical, as there are countless universes/earth out there. all this are existence in play. new universes are form and old ones die everyday. this is in line with science. Buddha already talk about it 2500-3000 years ago.
macroscopical part is the talk on illusion of all this samsaric existence. Enlightenment is the "end days" of the entire samsaric existence. maybe we can say the return to .....
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On what basis do you dismiss the Bible's account as fictional but not Buddhist account?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:1. Natural has the connotation of being inherent, not causal, etc. But yes, ignorance is conditioned, is dependent on conditions, and those causes and be removed. That is the purpose of the whole Buddhist path.
Here the sutta teaches:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.htmlIgnorance
Saying "Good, friend," having delighted in and approved of Ven. Sariputta's words, the monks asked him a further question: "Would there be another line of reasoning by which a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma?"
"There would. When a disciple of the noble ones discerns ignorance, the origination of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of ignorance, then he is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma.
"And what is ignorance? What is the origination of ignorance? What is the cessation of ignorance? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of ignorance?
"Any lack of knowledge with reference to stress, any lack of knowledge with reference to the origination of stress, any lack of knowledge with reference to the cessation of stress, any lack of knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress. This is called ignorance.
"From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance. From the cessation of fermentation comes the cessation of ignorance. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"Now, when a disciple of the noble ones discerns ignorance, the origination of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of ignorance in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
2. I would rather say that murder is causing harm and pain and suffering, and because nobody wishes to be killed, and because anyone with a kind heart would not wish anyone else to be killed, laws are enacted out of a compassionate, well wishing heart, or sometimes out of fear, etc. Laws are enacted on the basis of whether an action is unwholesome or wholesome...
3. Ignorance and suffering is not eternal - they are without beginning as a stream that arises and ceases and re-arises out of latent conditions again and again, but those causes and conditions can be treated and ended.
4. Yes. Just like you cannot escape the natural effects of cancer Only if you chain smoke (you cannot escape the effects of smoking), and the solution is just to stop or not start smoking, likewise you can avoid karma by no longer planting the seeds of karma. But karma can only truly be 'escaped' in liberation. The noble eightfold path is the way.
5. Yes. Buddha is very precise and teaches us the twelve links of dependent origination, both forward and reverse.
1. Natural has the element of being inherent? As in having inherent existence? I draw your attention again to the incoherence of contingent entities without end. In any case I would note that defining the lack of knowledge as the origin of ignorance is really not saying much, it is saying the samething.
2. Murder certainly causes harm and suffering. The question is, why is it wrong to cause harm and suffering? Why should anyone be held punishable for murder if this is the natural law at work? We do not put a lion on trial for eating a deer.
3. Again, without beginning is the same meaning as eternal.
4. Is it humanly possible to adhere to the 8 fold path perfectly? I don't think so.
5. 12 links of dependent origination as in http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot05.htm The Bible offers a different view. It was not lack of wisdom that resulted in suffering. It was lack of obedience. Perhaps an analogy might be children. Yes, they lack knowledge, but all they need to do is to listen and obey their parents and they will be safe. But the moment they disobey there will be adverse consequences.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Sorry but the idea of suffering without sufferer is illogical. It's like being married but there's no husband and wife!
It is illogical because of your false supposition that there must be a self. I've answered you in the other thread.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:1. Natural has the element of being inherent? As in having inherent existence? I draw your attention again to the incoherence of contingent entities without end. In any case I would note that defining the lack of knowledge as the origin of ignorance is really not saying much, it is saying the samething.
2. Murder certainly causes harm and suffering. The question is, why is it wrong to cause harm and suffering? Why should anyone be held punishable for murder if this is the natural law at work? We do not put a lion on trial for eating a deer.
3. Again, without beginning is the same meaning as eternal.
4. Is it humanly possible to adhere to the 8 fold path perfectly? I don't think so.
5. 12 links of dependent origination as in http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot05.htm The Bible offers a different view. It was not lack of wisdom that resulted in suffering. It was lack of obedience. Perhaps an analogy might be children. Yes, they lack knowledge, but all they need to do is to listen and obey their parents and they will be safe. But the moment they disobey there will be adverse consequences.
1. On the contrary, ignorance is defined very precisely there. Also it is clearly taught that ignorance depends on factors that has went on without beginning. If you read that page, it says fermentation is the origin of ignorance. Then there is another section which says ignorance is the origin of fermentation. So it's a cycle.
From that page:
Second, Ven. Sariputta here continues the pattern of dependent co-arising past ignorance — the usual endpoint — to look for its origination, which is mental fermentation. Because these fermentations in turn depend on ignorance, the discussion shows how ignorance tends to prompt more ignorance. But, as Ven. Sariputta has demonstrated throughout his discussion, ignorance needn't keep propagating forever. Because it is simply a lack of knowledge in terms of the four noble truths, it can be replaced by knowledge that does look at things in terms of the four noble truths — the framework derived from the topics of skillful/unskillful and nutriment. When knowledge in terms of this framework is applied at any point in the causal framework, the entire framework dependent on ignorance can be brought to an end.
2. Because we identify ourselves as human beings, that is why we find a need to protect our species, just like mothers find a need to protect her children (but not someone elses' children), out of well intentions for others or out of fear.
3. No... eternal means "without beginning AND end", "changeless" (dictionary). Furthermore, ignorance is arising and subsiding and re-arising moment by moment. It also has the characteristic of impermanence and ever-changingness. But its final end can come about in liberation.
4. The eightfold path is not about being a moral perfectionist (at least not at the beginning) and morality is not an ends in Buddhism. Morality is only one part - and its purpose is simply so that we are free from the guilt and other mental hindrances that prevent us from developing Samadhi (meditative concentration) and Insight (into the nature of things). The main practise to develope insight is Vipassana/Vipashyana practise. Many practitioners have become enlightened through this practise. There are thousands, tens of thousands of liberated practitioners in Buddha's times and countless till today. Even today people are getting enlightened.
And when you are enlightened, and liberated, then it is no longer matter of following rules because the root cause of unwholesome actions - passion, aggression and delusion is cut off. Like a root that is removed, the trees and branches no longer grow. We cut the problem at its roots and not the leaves - we purify our minds and not just practise "do good, avoid evil".
5. Yes I understand the Christian POV. This is another point along a long list where we differ.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It is illogical because of your false supposition that there must be a self. I've answered you in the other thread.
Which begs the question, you have yet to show that the idea of a "self" is false. So far it is merely asserted or claimed. Why would it be true that there must be no-self? Since Buddha is a mere man and has claimed that, it would be entirely possible that his teaching about no-self is false.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Which begs the question, you have yet to show that the idea of a "self" is false. So far it is merely asserted or claimed. Why would it be true that there must be no-self? Since Buddha is a mere man and has claimed that, it would be entirely possible that his teaching about no-self is false.
Buddha is not a mere man, he categorically rejected himself as mere 'human' (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.036.than.html). But neither is he a mere god. He is higher than any of them - he is an "awakened one", and the teacher of men and devas. All aryas - awakened beings, are respected by men and gods (i.e. beings in heaven), they pay homage to aryas.
As for no-self, there is a debate between Buddha and someone else: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.035.than.html
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I doubt that Buddha was talking about atoms back then.
it's known as maha bhuta, a form of Buddha language. matter are not still, they beat is what He said. not just that, He was already talking about energy. aka the Basic Abstract Elements(kriya).
Abhidhamma in Buddhism is very scientific.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491
Chapter 2
As mentioned in previous chapter, the basic abstract elements or smallest matters (maha bhuta) in the cosmos are the following;
Basic Abstract Elements Characteristics (1) Abstract earth (pathavi) To harden and to soften (2) Abstract water (apo) To flow and to paste (3) Abstract Air (vayo) To expand and to contract (4) Abstract heat (tejo) To heat and to cool.
These elements are also called units (kriya), because they exist by repetition of beats, about 176,470,000,000 times in a flash of lightning.
The atoms are not round in shape. They are feather-like as in Chart 5B. Although they can join together, but are never completely mixed up like water and milk, because each unit of abstract element maintains its identity by a tiny cushion of space or sky element (akasa rupa). The sky element within a substance or body is called atmosphere (paricchedaskasa) which maintains the same temperature throughout the three feature elements (birth, existence and death) of an abstract element. The section of the space between the planets and stars is called stratosphere (ajatakasa). In fact these two are one continuously stretching within substances and throughout the cosmos.
.....
Chapter 3
The mind beats 3, 000, 000, 000, 000 times in a flash of lightning, about 17 times faster than the beats of matter. The time of a beat, although immeasurably fast, is standard and never varies and was therefore normally used by the Buddha. The mind, being very powerful, gathers the abstract matter to form the body, sustain and to build it bigger and stronger. All sentient beings have each a unit of mind. It can at any time be present at any part of the body, but not outside, except for the Buddhas and Arahants. The mind of a Buddha, being absolutely pure, omniscient and omnipotent, can appear anywhere and any time in the cosmos.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Even you conceded that a "Mind" of some sort exists in a beginingless way, so what mind/matter dilemma are you talking about?
Before time was created, we do not speak of "before" chronologically, but logically. Thus an eternal God who is timeless created the universe, at the moment of creation, time/space/matter was born. Thus the first three words of the Bible "In the beginning" is a most scientific phrase!
to me mind and matter is already part of existence, no dilemma. just that mind "control" matter. in a sense, u can say it's "first".
to me ur god-like "timeless/spaceless" are nothingness/nullism, as nothing is beyond everything. that's my take on "Exist-ence". unless ur 'god' is nothingness or do not Exist. we Buddhism can already talk of timeless/spaceless in this existence, like how Buddhas/bohisattvas can travel to anywhere in time or space, no need to go beyond. u want to talk about 'eternalism', u also talk within Existence. the creation myth also reminded me of 女娲 Nüwa. the taodejing also talk of how the Oneness of Tao, created Yin and Yang and then 4 stems and then 8, 16, , 32, 64 and so on. Yin and Yang reminded me of Adam and Eve.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddha is not a mere man, he categorically rejected himself as mere 'human' (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.036.than.html). But neither is he a mere god. He is higher than any of them - he is an "awakened one", and the teacher of men and devas. All aryas - awakened beings, are respected by men and gods (i.e. beings in heaven), they pay homage to aryas.
As for no-self, there is a debate between Buddha and someone else: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.035.than.html
From what I gather, Buddha was born a man, lived a man, suffered and eventually died a man, just like any other man. I mean, he can of course claim to be not a human, but I think the facts suggest otherwise.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:From what I gather, Buddha was born a man, lived a man, suffered and eventually died a man, just like any other man. I mean, he can of course claim to be not a human, but I think the facts suggest otherwise.
The difference is that he is completely free from any mental suffering, and any further samsaric births thereafter. He is free from all mental afflictions/defilements.
Also, he actually can 'choose' to extend his lifespan for very very long but his attendent Ananda didn't get his hint due to Mara's influence.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The difference is that he is completely free from any mental suffering, and any further samsaric births thereafter. He is free from all mental afflictions/defilements.
Also, he actually can 'choose' to extend his lifespan but his Ananda didn't get his hint due to Mara's influence.
Suffering is more than just mental, I am sure you know that. Buddha suffered and died for a fact i.e. his suffering did not end. As to whether he could indeed have the ability to freely extend his life, this point is now moot since he died. I would have think his ability to overcome the effects of eating contaminated food or lived for a few decades or so would go a long way in perpetuating the truth of his teachings or at least demonstrate that suffering cannot hurt him.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Suffering is more than just mental, I am sure you know that. Buddha suffered and died for a fact i.e. his suffering did not end. As to whether he could indeed have the ability to freely extend his life, this point is now moot since he died. I would have think his ability to overcome the effects of eating contaminated food or lived for a few decades or so would go a long way in perpetuating the truth of his teachings or at least demonstrate that suffering cannot hurt him.
Buddha may have felt physical pain, but not mental suffering*.
Three months before his passing, he already predicted and announced his passing. Means: he had chosen by his own will to pass away. Why? Because he has completed his job. It's up to us now.
In the Mahaparinibbana sutta it is clearly recorded:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html
7. And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.' [23]
8. "And now, O Lord, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have become the Blessed One's disciples in just this way. So, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until this holy life taught by me has become successful, prosperous, far-renowned, popular, and widespread, until it is well proclaimed among gods and men.' And this too has come to pass in just this way. So, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away, let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord."
9. When this was said, the Blessed One spoke to Mara, the Evil One, saying: "Do not trouble yourself, Evil One. Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away."
The Buddha had enormous powers and that is why he could choose things like that. But powers does not equate to liberation or awakening, nor does awakening necessarily equate to having powers. Non-Buddhists also have powers. Those who mastered jhanas and samadhi can have powers.
Among the Buddha's powers are:
1. The knowledge or ability of attaining insight (With this knowledge, He knows, “my
body is material, made from four great elements, born of mother and father, fed on rice
and gruel, impermanent, liable to be injured and abraded, broken and destroyed, and this
is my consciousness which is bound to it and dependent on it.”),
2. the knowledge of the production of a mind-made body, or the supernormal power of the
mind-made body (With this knowledge, out of this body He produces another body, having a
form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and faculities.),
3. the various supernormal powers (With the super-normal powers, being one, He becomes
many, and being many, He becomes one; He appears and disappears; He passes through fences,
walls, and mountains unhindered as if through air; He sinks into the ground and emerges
from it as if it were water; He walks on the water
without breaking the surface as if on land; He flies cross-legged through the air like a
bird with wings; He even touches and strokes with His hand the sun and moon, mighty and
powerful as they are, and He travels in the body as far as the Brahma world.),
4. the divine ear (With the divine ear, He hears sounds both divine and human, whether far
or near.),
5. the knowledge of others’ minds [understanding the ways of others’ thought]
(With this knowledge, He knows and distinguishes with His mind the minds of other
beings.),
6. the knowledge of previous existences [the remembrance of one’s former states of
existence] (With this knowledge, He remembers many previous existences: one birth, two
births,. . . . a hundred thusand births etc.),
7. the divine eye or the knowledge of the passing-away and arising of beings (With this
divine eye, He sees beings passing-away and arising, inferior and superior, well-favored
and ill-favored, to happy and unhappy destinations as kamma directs them.), and
8. the knowledge of eradicating defilements (With mind concentrated, purified and
cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, malleable, workable, established and having
gained imperturability, He applies and directs his mind to the knowledge of eradicating
defilements or destruction of corruptions. With this knowledge, He
knows as it really is: “This is suffering, the origing of suffering, the cessation of
suffering, and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.)
(Dighanikaya, Vol.1,Samathaphala Sutta)
* The Buddha taught that this is how liberated beings experience pain:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html
..."Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.
"This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling."
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddha may have felt physical pain, but not mental suffering*.
Three months before his passing, he already predicted and announced his passing. Means: he had chosen by his own will to pass away. Why? Because he has completed his job. It's up to us now.
In the Mahaparinibbana sutta it is clearly recorded:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html
Mara's Appeal
7. And when the Venerable Ananda had gone away, Mara, the Evil One, approached the Blessed One. And standing at one side he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Now, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away; let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.' [23]
8. "And now, O Lord, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have become the Blessed One's disciples in just this way. So, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord.
"For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until this holy life taught by me has become successful, prosperous, far-renowned, popular, and widespread, until it is well proclaimed among gods and men.' And this too has come to pass in just this way. So, O Lord, let the Blessed One come to his final passing away, let the Happy One utterly pass away! The time has come for the Parinibbana of the Lord."
The Blessed One Relinquishes His Will to Live
9. When this was said, the Blessed One spoke to Mara, the Evil One, saying: "Do not trouble yourself, Evil One. Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away."
The Buddha had enormous powers and that is why he could choose things like that. But powers does not equate to liberation or awakening, nor does awakening necessarily equate to having powers. Non-Buddhists also have powers. Those who mastered jhanas and samadhi can have powers.
Among the Buddha's powers are:
1. The knowledge or ability of attaining insight (With this knowledge, He knows, “my body is material, made from four great elements, born of mother and father, fed on rice and gruel, impermanent, liable to be injured and abraded, broken and destroyed, and this is my consciousness which is bound to it and dependent on it.�),
2. the knowledge of the production of a mind-made body, or the supernormal power of the mind-made body (With this knowledge, out of this body He produces another body, having a form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and faculities.),
3. the various supernormal powers (With the super-normal powers, being one, He becomes many, and being many, He becomes one; He appears and disappears; He passes through fences, walls, and mountains unhindered as if through air; He sinks into the ground and emerges from it as if it were water; He walks on the water
without breaking the surface as if on land; He flies cross-legged through the air like a bird with wings; He even touches and strokes with His hand the sun and moon, mighty and powerful as they are, and He travels in the body as far as the Brahma world.),
4. the divine ear (With the divine ear, He hears sounds both divine and human, whether far or near.),
5. the knowledge of others’ minds [understanding the ways of others’ thought] (With this knowledge, He knows and distinguishes with His mind the minds of other beings.),
6. the knowledge of previous existences [the remembrance of one’s former states of existence] (With this knowledge, He remembers many previous existences: one birth, two births,. . . . a hundred thusand births etc.),
7. the divine eye or the knowledge of the passing-away and arising of beings (With this divine eye, He sees beings passing-away and arising, inferior and superior, well-favored and ill-favored, to happy and unhappy destinations as kamma directs them.), and
8. the knowledge of eradicating defilements (With mind concentrated, purified and cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, malleable, workable, established and having gained imperturability, He applies and directs his mind to the knowledge of eradicating defilements or destruction of corruptions. With this knowledge, He
knows as it really is: “This is suffering, the origing of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.)
(Dighanikaya, Vol.1,Samathaphala Sutta)
* The Buddha taught that this is how liberated beings experience pain:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html..."Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.
"This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling."
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Nevertheless the fact remains that suffering and death still overtook him.
You're talking about the passing away of the bodily aggregates. But the liberated ones cannot be measured in terms of the aggregates. There is no more identification or inclination of 'I' or 'mine' to those passing aggregates.
As the Buddha puts it: The Tathagata is liberated from reckoning in terms of material form,
Vaccha, he is profound, immeasurable, unfathomable like the ocean.
http://measurelessmind.ca/four_noble_truths.html
It’s also worth mentioning that once liberation has been realized an arahant cannot be measured (mÄ«yati) or labeled (saá¹…kha) in terms of the five aggregates. For example, SN 22.36 Bhikkhu Sutta:
Venerable sir, if one has no underlying tendency towards form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness, then one is not measured (anumīyati) in accord with it. Whatever one is not measured by, that is not how one is labeled (saṅkha).
An arahant’s consciousness is not dependent (anissita) on any findable support, and therefore, is untraceable (ananuvejja) here and now. MN 22 AlagaddÅ«pama Sutta:
Monks, when the gods with Indra, with BrahmÄ� and with PajÄ�pati seek a monk who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find [anything of which they could say], “The tathÄ�gata’s consciousness is dependent on this.” Why is that? A tathÄ�gata, I say, is untraceable even here and now.
Elsewhere this non-abiding mind is designated as consciousness which is “not established” (appatiá¹á¹ha viññÄ�ṇa). SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta:
When that consciousness is not established, not increasing, not concocting, it is liberated. Being liberated, it is steady. Being steady, it is content. Being content, he is not excited. Unexcited, he personally attains complete nibbÄ�na. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’
Discerning that “birth is ended” is the gnosis of elimination (khayeñÄ�ṇa) and discerning that “there is nothing further here” is the gnosis of non-arising (anuppÄ�da ñÄ�ṇa)1 — knowing that there are no remaining conditions for existence. Both of these gnoses together are designated as gnosis and vision of liberation (vimuttiñÄ�ṇadassana).
In a number of discourses2 an arahant’s mind is designated as a “measureless mind” (appamÄ�ṇacetasa). There is no criterion or measurement (pamÄ�ṇa) which can be used as a reference point to define a measureless cognition. SN 6.7 KokÄ�lika Sutta:
What wise man here would seek to define
A measureless one by taking his measure?
He who would measure a measureless one
Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:From what I gather, Buddha was born a man, lived a man, suffered and eventually died a man, just like any other man. I mean, he can of course claim to be not a human, but I think the facts suggest otherwise.
erm, this kind of argument apply to both religion.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You're talking about the passing away of the bodily aggregates. But the liberated ones cannot be measured in terms of the aggregates. There is no more identification or inclination of 'I' or 'mine' to those passing aggregates.
As the Buddha puts it: The Tathagata is liberated from reckoning in terms of material form, Vaccha, he is profound, immeasurable, unfathomable like the ocean.
http://measurelessmind.ca/four_noble_truths.htmlIt’s also worth mentioning that once liberation has been realized an arahant cannot be measured (mÄ«yati) or labeled (saá¹…kha) in terms of the five aggregates. For example, SN 22.36 Bhikkhu Sutta:
An arahant’s consciousness is not dependent (anissita) on any findable support, and therefore, is untraceable (ananuvejja) here and now. MN 22 AlagaddÅ«pama Sutta:
Elsewhere this non-abiding mind is designated as consciousness which is “not established” (appatiá¹á¹ha viññÄ�ṇa). SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta:
Discerning that “birth is ended” is the gnosis of elimination (khayeñÄ�ṇa) and discerning that “there is nothing further here” is the gnosis of non-arising (anuppÄ�da ñÄ�ṇa)1 — knowing that there are no remaining conditions for existence. Both of these gnoses together are designated as gnosis and vision of liberation (vimuttiñÄ�ṇadassana).
In a number of discourses2 an arahant’s mind is designated as a “measureless mind” (appamÄ�ṇacetasa). There is no criterion or measurement (pamÄ�ṇa) which can be used as a reference point to define a measureless cognition. SN 6.7 KokÄ�lika Sutta:
Actually I am talking about the person dying. In my view it makes little sense to speak of a person in a deconstructed sense since that is not how we look at each other in our daily lives.
Originally posted by sinweiy:erm, this kind of argument apply to both religion.
I beg to differ.
Jesus was not an ordinary man who achieved some spiritual status. He was God who took the form of ordinary man. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God, though He set aside the full use of His divine faculties and limited Himself. But He suffered and died as a man, and rose from the dead on the third day, and ascended into heaven 40 days later before the eyes of His closest disciples.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Actually I am talking about the person dying. In my view it makes little sense to speak of a person in a deconstructed sense since that is not how we look at each other in our daily lives.
Bodily there will not be any appearance of difference from the rest of sentient beings. But the difference lies in that there is no more grasping and no more rebirth for that person. No more karma to be played out in further lifetimes.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thag/thag.14.01.than.html
"I don't delight in death,
don't delight in living.
I await my time
like a worker his wage.
I don't delight in death,
don't delight in living.
I await my time
mindful, alert.
The Teacher has been served by me;
the Awakened One's bidding,
done;
the heavy load, laid down;
the guide to becoming, uprooted.
And the goal for which I went forth
from home life into homelessness
I've reached:
the end
of all fetters.
Attain completion through heedfulness:
that is my message.
So then, I'm about to be
Unbound.
I'm released
everywhere."
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Bodily there will not be any appearance of difference from the rest of sentient beings. But the difference lies in that there is no more grasping and no more rebirth for that person. No more karma to be played out in further lifetimes.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thag/thag.14.01.than.html
"I don't delight in death, don't delight in living. I await my time like a worker his wage. I don't delight in death, don't delight in living. I await my time mindful, alert.
The Teacher has been served by me; the Awakened One's bidding, done; the heavy load, laid down; the guide to becoming, uprooted. And the goal for which I went forth from home life into homelessness I've reached: the end of all fetters. Attain completion through heedfulness: that is my message. So then, I'm about to be Unbound. I'm released everywhere."
Whether there be indeed no more karma or no more rebirth is in the realm of belief, beyond verification.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Whether there be indeed no more karma or no more rebirth is in the realm of belief, beyond verification.
hmmm, is the current humans that we are, a result of the sin from adam? and has it been verified?
If it is stated in the buddhism doctrines that there be indeed no karma and no more rebirth, but it is claimed(by you) that it is beyond verification and yet, the theory(not sure if it is called theory) of us humans as the result of sins from adam also came from the chirstianity doctrines(bible), doesn't that makes your statement a bias account?
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
hmmm, is the current humans that we are, a result of the sin from adam? and has it been verified?If it is stated in the buddhism doctrines that there be indeed no karma and no more rebirth, but it is claimed(by you) that it is beyond verification and yet, the theory(not sure if it is called theory) of us humans as the result of sins from adam also came from the chirstianity doctrines(bible), doesn't that makes your statement a bias account?
Excellent question! But you have jumped the gun. It doesn't make my statement a bias account. I did not say that it means similar beliefs claimed by Jesus are verified. There are many truth claims that cannot be verified. But all is not lost. Jesus told Nicodemus, ‘I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?’ (John 3:12).
So if the Bible can be trusted on the many things that it claimed which have been verified by what can be known, then there are good reasons to trust the Bible in its heavenly claims.
Repeat post deleted
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Excellent question! But you have jumped the gun. It doesn't make my statement a bias account. I did not say that it means similar beliefs claimed by Jesus are verified. There are many truth claims that cannot be verified. But all is not lost. Jesus told Nicodemus, ‘I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?’ (John 3:12).
So if the Bible can be trusted on the many things that it claimed which have been verified by what can be known, then there are good reasons to trust the Bible in its heavenly claims.
The buddhist will also bring out similar quotings from their doctrine isn't it? Which in that case, that makes their claims and whatever thats in their doctrines truth isnt it?