No-self does not imply determinism.
As I wrote to someone:
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Yes but not to be mistaken that will has no part in all these. The teaching of anatta or no self does not deny will or the aggregates... The buddha teaches that a sentient being is simply a convention for five aggregates: matter/body, feelings, perception, volition, consciousness. Notice that volition is part of it. This will/volition can be directed towards a wholesome or unwholesome path. However, also remember that the five aggregates are empty of self - and are without agent. Does that mean there is no free will? In a sense yes, but neither does it imply determinism: another dualistic extreme. Free will means subjective controller determines action, determinism means objective world determines subjective experience. In reality there is no subject and object - in thinking just thought, in hearing just sound. But there are requisite conditions for every manifestation. Those conditions can be changed if there is a correct path.
A concrete example: if you ask a beginner to run 2.4km in 9 minutes with an unfit body, that is asking for the impossible. No matter how hard willed is he, he is never going to make it. Why? The current requisite conditions of his body is such that the result of running 9 minutes is impossible. Control, agency, doesn't apply when manifestation always arise due to conditions.
It however also means that if you exercise regularly for months or years, there is no reason the body (conditions) cannot be improved to the degree that running 9 mins is definitely possible. This is what I mean by working with conditions.
So those teachers who say meditation are useless are not understanding latent tendencies and conditions. They mistook no doership with some kind of fatalism. Every proper practice has its place in working with one's conditions.
Just because there is no self, no doer, doesn't mean my body is fated to be unfit and I can't reach the 9 min. Just because I exercise regularly doesn't mean I am reinforcing the notion of self or doership. In any case, action is always without self.
It also does not mean that "will" has no place at all. "Will" is often misunderstood to be linked to a self or agent that has full control over things, whereas it is simply more manifestation and conditions. Yes, sheer will going against conditions isn't going to work – this is not understanding no-self and dependent origination. But if will is directed properly with correct understanding of no-self and conditionality, at a proper path and practice, it can lead to benefits.
That is why the first teaching of Buddha is the four noble truths: the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, the way to end suffering. This path arises as a result of his direct insight into no-self and dependent origination.
Like a doctor, you don't tell your patients "you are fated to be ill and sick and in pain, because there is no individual controller, everything is the will of God". That is nonsense. Instead, you diagnose the illness, you seek the cause of illness, you give a treatment that eliminates the cause of illness. There is no self, there is no controller, but there is conditions and manifestation and a way to treat bad conditions. This is the way of the four noble truths.
JonLS
why the need to be present as opposed to being lost in thought?
awareness doesn't give a hoot!
it simply IS
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JonLS excellent quote Pete, what i've noticed is that any need whatsoever to do or accomplish anything, is simply one thought too many! unless, of course, you see the thought for what it is and don't take it seriously, don't identify with it
what it's really about is awareness, awareness, awareness
about being aware of thoughts rather than being lost in the thought stream or in perceptions
Eckhart Tolle has helped me see that thoughts or perceptions are not the problem... it's IDENTIFICATION with them that makes the difference
but even then... no matter how much identification there is, it doesn't change your true nature as awareness itself...
so letting go of needing life to unfold in any particular manner whether lost in thought or completely here and now totally aware...
is true freedom
and is also the nature of awareness itself
Yesterday at 1:54am · Like
JonLS "as when the effects of these thoughts are seen directly, they tend to stop arising."
what happens in time is that there's a continuing story of you being able to see thoughts for what they are, no longer being unconsciously identified with them, seeing the effect they have on you as you become more and more aware of their effect on you...
but of course, this is just more interpretation by the mind that is becoming more aware of it's own inner workings and more aware of it's true nature as the crystal clear awareness in which all this phenomena arises in/as
Yesterday at 1:59am · Like
.....
JonLS "If we are caught up in our thoughts, this means we are still unable to let go of our obsessions and attachments, etc."
what i am aware of AEN, is that any identification, with any thought, brings you back into identification with form, with a someone who can do something, your sentence above is a good example of that
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS there's really NOTHING that is needed to be believed or worked on or figured out, it's just the separate sense of self, the idea, that would need to do any of that
9 hours ago · Like
AEN The story of a problem and someone having a problem is a story... what is happening however is just thoughts, attachment, obsession, etc. What can be seen is that attachment, craving, leads to suffering. What can also be seen is that there is an end and way that leads to the end of suffering... It certainly has nothing to do with engaging in more stories or resistance... The way is simply the view, path, realization (that always already, no seer or something seen, only the pristine and self-luminous percept shining forth and vanishing each moment according to causality), and actualization of the realization of anatta and emptiness in daily life, the effortless transcendance (more like non-clinging, or non conceiving) of any self or anything inherent... in each moment, action, experience. In this actualization of wisdom, nothing is conceived, nothing is grasped, and neither is there something to let go nor somebody to let go... as always already, whatever arises self-liberates upon inception like writing on water. In that way whatever thoughts arises are no harm - just like thieves entering an empty house. But then... to say that being lost in thought is OK.... that to me is not quite right, it is not spoken from the 'place' of actualization.
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS AEN wrote:
"The story of a problem and someone having a problem is a story... what is happening however is just thoughts, attachment, obsession, etc. What can be seen is that attachment, craving, leads to suffering. What can also be seen is that there is an end and way that leads to the end of suffering..."
what i've recognized is that even the final chapter of a story, the part about it unwinding or becoming aware of it's own emptiness, is still just more of the same, still that movement of thought that has some kind of goal, some kind of momentum to keep going for it's own sake, being aware of this is what you call "anatta and emptiness in daily life", or another way of saying is that is just simple aware presence
or even more simply, just being mindful
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS "In this actualization of wisdom, nothing is conceived, nothing is grasped, and neither is there something to let go nor somebody to let go... as always already, whatever arises self-liberates upon inception like writing on water"
clearly AEN, we're saying the same using different words :)
9 hours ago · Like
AEN JonLS, while the story of 'someone having a problem' is merely a story because there is no 'self', nonetheless wisdom is a direct experience - the actualization of the luminous-emptiness in each perception, thought and action is undeniable, and also ignorance is also something to be observed - cannot be denied. Therefore the four noble truths are called 'truths' - the fact of suffering, the fact of the cause of suffering, the fact of the end of suffering, the path that leads to the end of suffering. All these are experiential facts... If we say 'its ok to be lost in thought', we are merely entertaining our momentum and not seeing the truths clearly. When we approach the four noble truths, it appears that it's more of a story - as if there is a person having suffering, a person who needs to reach the end of suffering etc... but actually its not. As the Buddha teach, there is no self, there is only suffering, its cause, its end, and way to end it. There is just the experience without the experiencer. Experience always has its causes and conditions, and those causes and conditions can be treated given a proper way... like a doctor treating patients.
At this point I just recalled something Thusness said in 2007 - http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/262408
"Spontaneous arising cannot be taught first. You cannot tell people things just happen by itself. You cannot tell people to practise this way. Only after certain stage, when a person has seen non-duality, experienced the luminosity, experienced the passing and dissolving away, you can tell them. Because it is leading towards that already. But before that, if you tell them, they are being controlled by the momentum, merely swopped away only.
It is very dangerous to tell people to just relax. Why do person said that? Because they failed to see the strength of what I call, pre-consciousness, the strength of propensities. You see what I mean? When you tell or teach a person just relax lah, just let everything manifest. You cant. A person that does this probably turns to being ultimate slacker. Didnt do anything. {laugh} Rather than practising, he is digging his own grave you know, enhancing the momentum.
Why spontaneous arising is for a person that has understood (reality)... especially that he has gone through non-duality. He can do spontaneous arising. He can practise spontaneous arising. Why is this so? Because once a person enters into non-duality, the bond of the Self is already gone. A big chunk of the bond, the Self-propensities are already gone. And when this self propensities is gone, the energy turning against itself is being released, and work for itself. It does not die, you know. It is just released and then works for itself, rather than turning against itself. So only a person that has understood and experienced non-duality, it is better for him to penetrate spontaneous arising, to practice this way. Because can see.. {inaudible} there is no need to respond anything. Do you get what I mean? But if lets say you do not see it, like I said that everything is the Mind, but you did not see that everything is the Mind then you start to say dont need to do anything, you are letting your momentum take..."
IMO, not only must one realize non-duality, one must realize and actualize the wisdom of twofold emptiness (anatta and emptiness), then our path becomes one of spontaneous appearance and spontaneous release/liberation. At this point there is no effort or contrivance, all are realized to be luminous emptiness, like the shimmering of the mirage of sun on water - illusory, coreless, self-releasing and doesn't leave any trace.
But to tell everyone "getting lost in thoughts are ok, you are just fine/perfect as you are, just relax and let be" - if that person has not woken up to his real nature and actualized the twofold emptiness, this is "being controlled by the momentum, merely swopped away only", "digging his own grave you know, enhancing the momentum".
Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness - SgForums.com
sgforums.com
Still remember we had a Lankavatara Sutra sharing session by Thusness in the beginning part of the year? (6th January 2007) Well, since I am a fast typer, I decided to type out everything that is said by ...
52 minutes ago · Like ·
AEN I was reminded of what Longchenpa said:
In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is awakened mind (bodhicitta);
this confusion is a dimension of complete darkness,
a hindrance to the meaning of the natural great perfection.
13 minutes ago · Like
AEN Today Thusness asked me a question after I sent someone by email a reply regarding if robots can produce consciousness.
He said:
"What u wrote here is better but u must also understand how does the realization of anatta help you on the path of right practice. What exactly hv u learnt from this insight of no-self and how does this realization help? Do not keep repeating "in thinking, no thinker" or sprout phrases like "self liberates upon inception" as if there is nothing do or practice becomes a total irrelevance.
There is no unchanging, inherent, independent agent apart from the aggregates, then how should practice be? Do nothing and everything self liberates? Is this right understanding?
If there is truly an independent unchanging agent then practice would be by way of disassociation and keeping the mirror bright but that is not the case so how should u go forward?"
I said:
"The insight of no-self removes contraction, identification, allows you to drop any attachment to a Self, Awareness, or even a Body-mind, by seeing their insubstantiality – there isn’t a real self, awareness, body or mind to grasp. Conceptual thoughts and constructs (such as seer seeing the seen) are replaced with direct perception. When one actualizes the twofold emptiness wisdom in everyday life, we also learn to drop the ‘mine’ aspect.
The practice is simply in actualizing wisdom of twofold emptiness in every moment... otherwise nothing is liberated, there is always more traces, more clinging, more proliferation. That means all trace of self and conceptions of anything inherent must be burnt away in rigpa moment to moment...
In short constantly opening or releasing any delusion of inherent self, agent, or ground or ‘thingness’.... in seeing just the seen (no self, agent, or object), replacing the sense of self with just the one action of D.O."
AEN There is no 'awareness being unaffected by thoughts'... that too is an illusion. As Thusness pointed out, "If there is truly an independent unchanging agent then practice would be by way of disassociation and keeping the mirror bright but that is not the case so how should u go forward?" He also wrote: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
For those masters that taught,
“Let thoughts arise and subside,
See the background mirror as perfect and be unaffected.”
With all due respect, they have just “blah” something nice but deluded.
Rather,
See that there is no one behind thoughts.
First, one thought then another thought.
With deepening insight it will later be revealed,
Always just this, One Thought!
Non-arising, luminous yet empty!
Awakening to Reality: On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfect
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
JonLS is the one Thusness wrote his stages of awakening to
S being awake and not being awake are opposing poles of the same thing yes? Being lost in thought is also happening in the moment because what else is there. I can't see that any of it matters which ever way it rolls. Every being IS where they are .....they are where they are meant to be.
about an hour ago · Like
S Regardless of if you think you should not say or should say something to someone ...it is what it is ....
about an hour ago · Like
AEN There are no 'same thing'... there is ignorance, there is wisdom, there is suffering, there is end of suffering, all there is is diverse manifestation. They are of one taste (luminous and empty) but there is no 'same substance' (empty and nothing to be pinned down - all appearances are disjoint, disconnected, spontaneous, insubstantial, ephemeral, bubble-like and groundless), nonetheless there is diverse ongoing appearances. Realizing and actualizing that is liberating, and getting lost in one's ignorance is delusion. So not to misunderstand getting lost in discursive thoughts as wisdom. In the case of wisdom, thoughts self-liberates, in the case of delusion, thoughts chain up and becomes suffering.
about an hour ago · Like
AEN "Every being IS where they are .....they are where they are meant to be." - there is no "meant to be"... "meant to be" is an interpretation. There is just suffering... the experience without experiencer. Suffering has its causes. Its cause can be eliminated with wisdom. A doctor doesn't tell a patient "you are meant to be sick", he simply diagnoses the illness and its cause and prescribes a treatment.
about an hour ago · Like
AEN Nothing is meant to be, as if it is fated or determined. "God's will" is bullshit. Everything arises due to causes and conditions.
Thanks for this great sharing...