Discussion with Thusness in 2008:
(8:09 PM) Thusness: What about the stuff Element said?
(8:10 PM) AEN: he speaks about mindfulness as if something we can direct according to our intentions
(8:10 PM) AEN: but i tink mindfulness is more like waking up from our conceptualization process to what is present
(8:11 PM) AEN: ya and he said mindfulness is like a supervisor
(8:11 PM) AEN: like watching the mind or something
(8:12 PM) Thusness: mindfulness as recollection
(8:12 PM) Thusness: but he further clarifies mindfulness as remembering to be in the present moment.
(8:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:13 PM) Thusness: so what has that got to do with the 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) AEN: the present moment exhibits 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) Thusness: and he brought up a very important topic, 'oneness vs dispassionate'
(8:15 PM) AEN: oic ya actually i think its the same
(8:15 PM) AEN: i wanted to reply yesterday but no time, but i saved some of the things i wrote... going to edit first
(8:15 PM) AEN: haven edited
(8:19 PM) Thusness: first tell me more about mindfulness
(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm wat about it
(8:20 PM) Thusness: what can u learn from Element and what you know
(8:21 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:21 PM) AEN: mindfulness is like recollecting what is present?
(8:22 PM) Thusness: how can u recollect what is present?
(8:23 PM) AEN: means not forgetting present moment and getting lost in thoughts?
(8:23 PM) Thusness: no
(8:24 PM) AEN: recollecting just means paying attention?
(8:24 PM) Thusness: no
(8:25 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:25 PM) AEN: means focusing on an object and keeping it in mind?
(8:25 PM) Thusness: no
(8:26 PM) AEN: dunnu leh
(8:26 PM) AEN: lol
(8:27 PM) Thusness: mindfulness is a form of practice
(8:27 PM) AEN: by noticing that you are not present?
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
(8:33 PM) Thusness: first Element spoke about recollection.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: is mindfulness about recollection?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: or being pre-conceptual and bare.
(8:33 PM) AEN: i tink all?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: all as in?
(8:34 PM) AEN: its recollection, pre conceptual and bare
(8:34 PM) Thusness: meaning?
(8:34 PM) AEN: ven gunaratana said
(8:34 PM) AEN:
(A) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing . In meditation, you put your attention on one item. When your mind wanders from this focus, it is Mindfulness that reminds you that your mind is wandering and what you are supposed to be doing. It is Mindfulness that brings your mind back to the object of meditation. All of this occurs instantaneously and without internal dialogue. Mindfulness is not thinking. Repeated practice in meditation establishes this function as a mental habit which then carries over into the rest of your life. A serious meditator pays bare attention to occurrences all the time, day in, day out, whether formally sitting in meditation or not. This is a very lofty ideal towards which those who meditate may be working for a period of years or even decades. Our habit of getting stuck in thought is years old, and that habit will hang on in the most tenacious manner. The only way out is to be equally persistent in the cultivation of constant Mindfulness. When Mindfulness is present, you will notice when you become stuck in your thought patterns. It
(8:34 PM) AEN: It is that very noticing which allows you to back out of the thought process and free yourself from it. Mindfulness then returns your attention to its proper focus. If you are meditating at that moment, then your focus will be the formal object of meditation. If your are not in formal meditation, it will be just a pure application of bare attention itself, just a pure noticing of whatever comes up without getting involved--"Ah, this comes up...and now this, and now this... and now this".
Mindfulness is at one and the same time both bare attention itself and the function of reminding us to pay bare attention if we have ceased to do so. Bare attention is noticing. It re- establishes itself simply by noticing that it has not been present. As soon as you are noticing that you have not been noticing, then by definition you are noticing and then you are back again to paying bare attention.
Mindfulness creates its own distinct feeling in consciousness. It has a flavor--a light, clear, energetic flavor. Conscious thought is heavy by comparison, ponderous and picky. But here again, these a
(8:35 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:35 PM) AEN: mindfulness becomes a mental habit?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: mindfulness leading to enlightenment?
(8:35 PM) AEN: huh
(8:36 PM) AEN: i mean mindfulness serves as recollection when it becomes a mental habit?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: What is the relationship between Mindfulness and Enlightenment?
(8:37 PM) AEN: u need mindfulness to see things as they are, like perceive the 3 characteristics
(8:38 PM) Thusness: closer...what is mindfulness?
(8:38 PM) AEN: means bare attention?
(8:38 PM) Thusness: bare is pre-symbolic like being naked in awareness.
(8:39 PM) AEN: icic ya
(8:40 PM) Thusness: now getting back to where u stop after ur mind wonders is not the purpose of mindfulness.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: every form of meditation requires us to do that.
(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:40 PM) AEN: so u mean
(8:40 PM) AEN: mindfulness is not recollection?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: u do not recollect present moment
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic
(8:41 PM) Thusness: what has it got to do with the 3 characteristics?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: the seals?
(8:42 PM) AEN: recollecting itself does not mean one perceives 3 characteristics
(8:42 PM) AEN: but only when one becomes observant
(8:42 PM) Thusness: ai yoo...
(8:42 PM) Thusness: Buddha spoke of the dharma seals.
(8:43 PM) Thusness: sounded simple but difficult to understand
(8:43 PM) Thusness: we cannot understand the wisdom behind it
(8:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:44 PM) Thusness: mindfulness has several characteristics
(8:44 PM) Thusness: in which bare attention or being naked and non-conceptual awareness is important
(8:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:45 PM) Thusness: 2nd is it must remind (not recollect)
(8:45 PM) Thusness: remind of what?
(8:45 PM) AEN: present moment? or what you are doing?
(8:46 PM) AEN: like breathing meditation then remind of that
(8:46 PM) Thusness: no
(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is there to remind
(8:46 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, u r in the present
(8:46 PM) AEN: ya the reminding serves its purpose only when one becomes lost in thoughts, i tink
(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN: so u're saying reminding = being bare in attention?
(8:47 PM) Thusness: told u that is in all practices
(8:47 PM) Thusness: nothing to talk about.
(8:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: remind u constantly of the dharma seals.
(8:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, does it mean that u know the dharma seals?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: when u r in non-dual, does it mean that u know the 3 characteristics?
(8:48 PM) AEN: i thinks perceiving 3 characteristics is also a matter of clarity?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: all experiences are distorted due to ignorance and propensities.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: for u, u say u r Eternal Witness as if u r constant and everything flow even now.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: Even after reading so much and countless conversation with me.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: so isn't it not clear yet?
(8:49 PM) AEN: oic
(8:50 PM) AEN: so being bare in attention doesnt mean one perceives the 3 characteristics
(8:50 PM) AEN: bcos of propensities?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: even now...even after years of reading and summarizing and discussions?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:50 PM) Thusness: we do not know
(8:50 PM) Thusness: therefore we need to remind ourselves of the seals.
(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:50 PM) Thusness: why?
(8:51 PM) Thusness: because insight and wisdom have not arisen.
(8:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:51 PM) Thusness: therefore u practice mindfulness
(8:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness: u attempt to become non-conceptual, bare but the experience will still be distorted.
(8:53 PM) Thusness: now observing phenomena, seeing them arise and pass away, 'dispassionate' arise
(8:53 PM) Thusness: does that mean that u seek what that does not arise and pass away?
(8:54 PM) AEN: depends on whether propensities is reacting?
(8:54 PM) AEN: or whether theres right understandin'g
(8:54 PM) Thusness: right understanding means u seek or don't seek?
(8:54 PM) AEN: dont seek
(8:54 PM) Thusness: so what is important?
(8:55 PM) AEN: insight?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: insight into what?
(8:55 PM) AEN: the 3 seals?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: or our empty nature
(8:55 PM) Thusness: we come to that later
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic
(8:57 PM) Thusness: This is very important.
(8:58 PM) Thusness: emphasized the 3 characteristics in vipassana because their clear seeing causes something called dispassion and dispassion is the cause of Nibbana.
(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: Remember wat I told u and truth about becoming so sick that u gave up everything?
(9:00 PM) Thusness: suffering causes so much pain that u gave up?
(9:01 PM) AEN: not so sure :P
(9:03 PM) Thusness: go and read what i told Isis also.
(9:03 PM) Thusness: and all the discussions about mindfulness relates to what I told u about the 2 practices i told u to do.
(9:04 PM) AEN: dropping and self inquiry?
(9:05 PM) Thusness: if u can understand what i said and the purpose, u will know what i meant and what i am trying to teach u from beginning.
(9:05 PM) Thusness: that is continue to recall and summarize non-dual and emptiness
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have clarity in concepts and the meaning of it.
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have the non-dual experience
(9:06 PM) Thusness: and lastly dropping
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:07 PM) AEN: by recall u mean mindfulness?
(9:07 PM) AEN: btw wat did u tell issi
(9:07 PM) AEN: *isis
(9:08 PM) Thusness: dropping is about dispassion but it is not about dispassion but to arise a total willingness to let go.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: because grasping is 'self' in disguise.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: but non-dual experience will not be understood in terms of the 3 characteristics
(9:08 PM) Thusness: in terms of its empty nature
(9:11 PM) AEN: means one can have the experience of dispassion through dropping but not comprehending the 3 seals or emptiness?
(9:11 PM) Thusness: so bare and being non-conceptual will not allow u to have the right experience of non duality
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) AEN: that is through recollecting or being mindful of the 3 seals right
(9:11 PM) AEN: or vipassana
(9:11 PM) AEN: *reminding
(9:12 PM) Thusness: vipassana must go with right view
(9:12 PM) AEN: icic
(9:17 PM) Thusness: So what are the purposes of the 3 practices?
(9:19 PM) AEN: dropping is to give rise to the total willingness to let go of the self, vipassana is to give rise to the insight of the 3 seals or emptiness, self inquiry is the experience the "I AM" and show how strong the propensity is?
(9:20 PM) Thusness: It is like the dispassion. That is very important.
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Oneness is very important too.
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Or non-dual luminosity :)
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) AEN: thats experienced through vipassana rite?
(9:22 PM) Thusness: Understand oneness from DO perspective.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: And non-dual presence through right view and experience of presence.
(9:24 PM) AEN: oic
(9:25 PM) Thusness: These 3 aspects must go hand in hand
(9:25 PM) Thusness: There is no point arguing
(9:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: There can be no true understanding of Buddha's teachings without non-dual insight.
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:28 PM) Thusness: To understand the 3 relationships, u need to practice hard
(9:29 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of right views.
(9:29 PM) AEN: wat u mean by afraid of right views
(9:29 PM) Thusness: It will help.
(9:29 PM) AEN: u mean dont be afraid of having (right) views?
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Don't be trapped by non-conceptuality
(9:30 PM) AEN: oic
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:32 PM) Thusness: Having right views will sync non-dual luminosity with that 'dispassion' (total willingness to let go)
(9:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:33 PM) Thusness: The experience of Presence and non-dual experience can lead to very strong attachment of the Ultimate Reality
(9:34 PM) AEN: even after realising non duality?
(9:34 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:34 PM) Thusness: But not anatta
(9:34 PM) AEN: oic
(9:34 PM) AEN: y attachment
(9:35 PM) Thusness: because of ignorance
(9:35 PM) AEN: icic
(9:35 PM) Thusness: Of our empty nature
(9:36 PM) Thusness: Therefore advaita is not Buddhism
(9:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:36 PM) AEN: btw buddha say dispassion is linked to disenchantment is linked to insight
(9:36 PM) AEN: "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.
(9:37 PM) Thusness: The arising of 'dispassion' is very important but must be correctly understood
(9:37 PM) AEN: icic
(9:38 PM) Thusness: U should take that para seriously
(9:39 PM) Thusness: But Oneness and non-dual should not be overlooked.
(9:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:40 PM) Thusness: Missing either one, missed the point.
(9:41 PM) Thusness: Therefore the 3 things I told u.
(9:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:42 PM) AEN: wat are the 3 things
(9:44 PM) Thusness: U tell me.
(9:45 PM) AEN: dispassion, oneness, DO?
(9:46 PM) Thusness: What I tell u to practice?
(9:50 PM) AEN: dropping, vipassana, self inquiry?
(9:51 PM) Thusness: Summary of non-duality and emptiness
(9:52 PM) Thusness: Having right view
(9:52 PM) Thusness: How many times must I tell U?
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness: Without the right view, even with non-dual experience, wisdom of nature will not arise.
(9:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:56 PM) AEN: so the 3 are dropping, non dual presence, and summarising?
(9:57 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:15 PM) AEN: what is the difference between non dual and anatta
(10:19 PM) Thusness: It is the right understanding of non-dual experience free from the subject/Object and inherent views.
(10:20 PM) AEN: icic
(10:20 PM) AEN: that means one can realise pathless non dual but yet not be free from subject/object and inherent views?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: Huh?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: I hv written and told u so many times
(10:23 PM) Thusness: then what is emptiness for?
(10:26 PM) AEN: oic
(10:26 PM) AEN: but can u realise non dual and yet not be free from subject/object views?
(10:26 PM) AEN: or u mean inherency
(10:27 PM) Thusness: Yes
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: U can have non dual experience but not non-dual insight
(10:28 PM) AEN: so anatta actually includes understanding of DO and emptiness rite
(10:28 PM) AEN: non dual insight u mean insight into pathless nonduality or insight into anatta
(10:28 PM) Thusness: Which is clarity of what is the nature of our pristine awareness
(10:28 PM) Thusness: It is the same.
(10:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness: when one spoke of no-self, one says there is no subject/Object split
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One understands
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One realises that there Isn' t such a split.
(10:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: But doesn't mean there is clarity
(10:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness: Advaita realises that there is no split.
(10:37 PM) Thusness: But the grasping of the source is still there.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: However in anatta there is no grasping of anything.
(10:38 PM) AEN: how to grasp source when its realised to be all manifestation
(10:42 PM) Thusness: as long as one is under the propensity of Self, there is grasping of permanence.
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic ya even sailor bob adamson talks about awareness as permanent/changeless
(10:44 PM) AEN: though he said "everything in essence is that changeless natural knowing--nothing else"
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Although the experience is there, one is unable to fully go beyond this dualistic bond.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Thus it is subtle and deep.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: The real essence that is empty of inherent existence is the cause of non-dual insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness: the practitioner will not be able to overcome that bond
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after the non-dual experience
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after deep experience
(10:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Unless that inherent/dualistic view Is completely replaced in its inmost level
(10:51 PM) AEN: through emptiness?
(10:52 PM) Thusness: Therefore I said there is a desync
(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: Unable to go beyond it, practitioner prefer to rest in naked awareness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: The grasping will still be there because the root cause is still there.
(10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:54 PM) AEN: grasping on what
(10:54 PM) AEN: source?
(10:55 PM) Thusness: But one having non-dual and realises our emptiness nature is not afraid of having right view.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: Yes source.
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:56 PM) Thusness: But understand that it is a raft that serves as the antidote to dissolve inherent view.
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness: From it one gradually replaces inherent view and experiences nonlocality
(10:59 PM) AEN: means no sense of 'being here'?
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Because there is no need to hold on to anything in the deepest level.
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic
(10:59 PM) Thusness: No this nor that
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Here nor there
(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:00 PM) Thusness: Dissolve any inherent view, there is no returning nor going
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The experience of non-dual is refined
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The source is dropped
(11:01 PM) AEN: btw u realised DO/emptiness by contemplating on the buddha's verse 'this is, that is'?
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) Thusness: No
(11:02 PM) AEN: oic then
(11:02 PM) Thusness: Because there is the truthfulness in me...Hehe
(11:03 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(11:03 PM) Thusness: My non-dual stage 5 does not sync in terms of view
(11:05 PM) Thusness: Therefore I continue to have further clarity in non-dual experience and compare with Buddha's teachings
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:06 PM) AEN: u read the sutras?
(11:06 PM) Thusness: When deep in my I require no more subject/Object framework, my luminosity becomes clear.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: I can see the teachings with deeper clarity.
(11:09 PM) Thusness: There is no holding of any views
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness: It is just intuiting it is so.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
