There is no you.

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jan 12, 14:49

  Tuesday, August 30, 2011 Theravada meditation teacher: I see it as THE opportunity of life times. 3:23 AM | Posted by Elena | Hello Elena, Thank you for your willingness to look at this. I admire and respect your dedication toward helping others. A little about my back ground. I have been practicing meditation consistently for over fifteen years and have been teaching meditation and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist minister, but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism. I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free. In my personal practice I have seen improvements in clarity and understanding of selflessness. I have a love for the truth. That is what motivates me. I have the determination to look in side and see what is not there. There are moments of seeing through the illusion but it does not stick. There is this self talk that says "this is a gradual path, just relax and it will come" and then there is the other inner voice that says " you don't have much time, get this done with, see through the illusion of the 'I' NOW and for ever and really help others". I enjoy teaching, but even more, there is the inner drive to help people through there suffering, ( you have this same drive). I understand that the suffering that is so prevalent in the people I meet is from the the false identity of "self". Although to truly liberate others, I should first be free from this illusion my self other wise It seems like I am teaching people what I know and that seems to be how to relax the body and still the mind. I am needing a push. I know it is possible get beyond this wall. I wish to see the truth and have it last and stick. I want to hear that SNAP in the back of the head and know that I really qualify to talk to others about what their life can be like once liberated. I know that what you and the others are doing here works, and see it as THE opportunity of life times. Elena: I appreciate your honesty, Shawn. This what will get you through: be willing to re-examine your immediate experience what is what.  As meditator you can break up your experience on components, right? So lets just do that. Look at "I" right now and tell me what you see. One by one, anything that arises - write. Shane: When looked at, "I" seems to arise and fall away. Such as, when something has to be done or when a mind state is noticed it seems to be more present. Just now when searching for a way to communicate this the "I" did not seem to be present. So there seems to be a strong "I" should do this or "I" will be doing or "I" did that. But, it does seem to come and go. Oh! one strong thing I just realized, is that when I noticed that you called me Shawn instead of Shane, a sense of Shaken identity or a grasping at the "I" arose. Elena: It's strong, this grasping. I called Robert S."Bob" and the same happened! Look how label Shane is just the same as label "I". it's just a label.  What is Shane? A word/thought + emotions+sensation.  What is "I"? A word/though + emotions + sensations. Thought - exist Emotions - exist Sensations - exist Shawn - just a label I - just a label Look in this direction. Let me know what comes up. Shane: It is noticed right away that what comes up is a feeling of tension or uneasiness. The label is just there. Thought  triggers emotion and sensation the result is this uneasiness. Elena: Shane is a label, as Shawn too! So we have this feeling arising when the label is a little off. You are Theravada guy, you can break up the experience and see: - feeling - yes - uncomfortable sensations - yes - associated thoughts - yes me? - no where is the self in all of that? sense of self - yes actual self - no but again, you can look deep what sense of self is - all the same thoughts, sensations, feeling Please look at all this, and write to me what's going on You are very close, can't be otherwise with all your experience... ...which is not yours. Just is. Experience is. The thought "I" "mine" comes and claims the experience. Sharing just happening, you know. Are you doing it? No.You know, it's just a movement that get's expressed in particular way. So why anything else should be different? Ask yourself, ask where you hang on. What is that?  Please, do not go into equanimity, go hot and desperate and ask. "Where the hell I am clinging??!!"  ASK! Shane: There is a strong feeling that staying with the immediate experience is key here. This being the only reality there is. The only place where we can find true honesty of any situation. So, with the arising of a thought, there seems to be the co-arising or the manipulation of the already present emotions and sensations. [this can sound deeper than it really is, can't it] it is just what it is. These things happen and they are not me as long as I do not try to attach a story to all of it. It occurs to me that even if attaching a story to these arising things, it still is not the truth. just a false label that is applied to the process of thought-emotions-sensations or as you said, what is what. Elena: What you wrote to me was more like a discourse, Shane. We both don't need that, really. Let's do this. I will push, you look, you come back and answer EXACTLY what was asked.  You try your best not to analyze, otherwise I would have to slap you, Shane, even though I do respect all your experience, but at the same time, I would not be doing what I am doing, if I would just listen to you. I trust what's arising here, so if I read and I feel no interest, no concentration in what you wrote to me, I trust that. Was it great insight? Maybe, but I don't care. I keep very narrow focus, and won't step even one step sideways. Tell me if it is ok with you, and if you are willing to stay to the end? And if you are willing to stop reading no-self, non-duality staff while with me, if you are willing to have raw emotions, and if you are willing to look at them in the way i ask you.  I am going to wait for your answer. Shane: Yes Elena, lets do this. no reading stuff and raw emotions. I read your question as "Where the hell am I clinging??!!"  So I am just going to just write here....this is tough because I feel as if there is something that I should be fighting off, like beating down with a stick to get ride of it, but  don't know what it is for sure. Elena: You did not answer my question, Shane.  Here it is again: “Ask yourself, ask where you hang on. What is that? Please, do not go into equanimity, go hot and desperate and ask. "Where the hell I am clinging??!!"  ASK.� Shane: to an attempt to be that intelligent, charming, funny, nice hard working guy. But wonder what all of that is. Is it the "I" or is it just the way i see the personality or want is it? Seems strange but i seem to be looking for something to let go of, something bad or wrong and find it frustrating not knowing what it is. Elena: I want to know if you asked. What did you do? Did you look up in your habitual way (not bad, or good here), just habitual. For you it may be subtle, since you used to look, divide, dissect. Here how it goes with Theravada people: they focus their attention, divide the experience, look, understand, etc. What's wrong with this? That self, that is in the middle of each step. You came to me and said : I feel this dissatisfaction, I feel the search is still going, I have a burning desire to see the truth to help others. It is very noble intention, very cool. And its great you know it is possible. It means that it is possible for you. Any moment. So when I tell you ask yourself where you hang on, here is what you do: You understand that this is essential for you  to see the truth. With that understanding and strong intention,  to the point of desperation,  like this is the last question of you life -  only one  and then you die,  you - ASK then you become very quite,  another words,  shut up the habitual thinking, analyzing, any meditation - whatever you are doing completely shut it off and listen Shane: "The clinging could be..." so I won't here "could be" or "should be" - it must be clearly seeing Let's do it again. Shane: I did just as you asked....It is being! it is continually trying to be some thing or some one. A relentless trying to be this or that. A teacher, an author, a humanitarian what ever...it is being. NOT to let it be.... but to be somebody. I will have to let this settle to see if there is something more. but there are tears... Elena: so now look plainly, physically, with 2 eyes and see that being-ness is going, regardless of you trying to be, tensing in this "somebody" or that one…it's just is. And tensing/contracting is that beinng-ness too. There is no you. Regardless of how being-ness presenting itself. No you. Just as a label, yes. Actual you - not at all. Nada. Look that this being-ness does not require you as an entity there to manage it's flow. Look at the baby. When baby is born there is only being, being-ness there. Baby is one with it's environment. Baby cries out of sensations of hunger, movement happens toward the breast. Where is self in all that? None. Something happens later when baby start to associate the sensations, the body with himself - "I", "mine". All experience now is divided and labeled. But what's true? There is no separation, no entity. So all life now this paradox is trying to resolve itself. This is the suffering - the turmoil of dissatisfaction, of seeking, of feeling incomplete, feeling of something missing. Until the label seeing again as a label, not the owner of the house. The owner never was there, just an illusion. Can you look now and tell me what you see. Look right at your experience. What is there? Shane: The experience right now! is that there is the world being the world with its sounds and colors. Sense information coming into this body. Everything is happening as it should. No surprises. When just sitting here seeing and looking at this, It feels like there is no one pushing. just looking is happening. Elena: great. Look now. Answer me this: Is there you in any shape or form in the reality? Shane: I looked and looked...there is body, like  flesh and bones. but, no owner of this stuff. Elena: do you exist? Shane: No, there isn't anything existing. nothing there to claim it existences. Funny... nothing there to even claim it doesn't exist. Elena: hahahaha! You made me laugh! So then what is "I" really? Shane: Its just a label, really a mistake. like seeing a shadow and thinking its real, but nothing to see. Okay, like thinking of a shadow and believing its real. Elena: What is happening now? Tell me what do you see. Shane: There is just seeing, thoughts are happening, the body is being the body, there are sounds, and actually very pleasant emotions coming from the not being or not having to be that was mentioned earlier. [that's when they started] The body is just sitting and mostly just simply doing. Elena: Ok, great, my friend Shane. And now - chop that wood: lead the classes, wash the dishes, write a book! Let's keep in touch, please write if anything, ok? Much love to you. Big warm hug!  Shane: A very joyful Thank you! thank you! thank you! you are wonderful, like magic. Your words cut through the crap and into the heart of it. Things are very clear now! If you need anything please let me know. And please keep doing this work, it just might be our only hope. Much love to you! and a big WARM hug back (it was over100 Degrees here again today) Love, Shane Elena: Thank you for your love. It was really an honor. You can help many people, even though we both know that all is right, and what is happening - happening, and there is no teacher or student, or people to help, but also this play is happening - in teacher and students, and help needed, and push needed, and whatever - all so intricate, so amazing…play along! And now you can really go into marketplace. So much love to you, Shane! We will be in touch, of cause!    Spread this: 98 Share Labels: elena complete humanity, liberation thread, no self, shane wilson meditation, vipassana - http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/ordained-buddhist-minister-i-see-it-as.html
• Dharmadhatu

  12 Jan 12, 17:29

  got some doubts here...

  is this just an intellectual understanding?  did his understanding change his entire perception all the time?

• Dawnfirstlight

  12 Jan 12, 17:38

  What I'm going to say is not exactly related to this topic. How do we know that this body does not belong to us? If the body is ours, we should be able to control it, however, we can't stop our body from ageing, falling ill etc. Sometimes we can't even control our movements. Many people hate to go to work in the morning but we have to because we need to earn a living. So, again it is not within our control. Anything beyond our control is not ours. I strongly agree.I heard this from a Ven.

• Fugazzi

  12 Jan 12, 18:54

  @Dawnfirstlight - Park your mind NO-WHERE lah and watch what happens.The possibility of the questions (questioner) and the answers (answerer) will simply evaporate. How earnest, how stubborn one is about wanting to know - makes a difference.
• Dharmadhatu

  12 Jan 12, 20:06

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  What I'm going to say is not exactly related to this topic. How do we know that this body does not belong to us? If the body is ours, we should be able to control it, however, we can't stop our body from ageing, falling ill etc. Sometimes we can't even control our movements. Many people hate to go to work in the morning but we have to because we need to earn a living. So, again it is not within our control. Anything beyond our control is not ours. I strongly agree.I heard this from a Ven.

  In the first place, Buddha is saying there is no 'us'. So the question of belonging / controlling does not arise.

  The way you are saying is assuming there is a 'us'.  According to how you say, even if the body does not belong / controlled by 'us', there is still a 'us' somewhere else.  This is not what Buddha teaching.

   

   

   

   

• Dharmadhatu

  12 Jan 12, 20:06

   

   Repeated

• Jui

  12 Jan 12, 20:07

  Pretty incredible that no-nonsense direct pointing combined with the impersonality of the internet can bring results so quickly. I wonder if given a few more years people like Ciaran and Stephen will deepen this to the depths that buddhism has reached.

  Interestingly, I was re-listening to some old buddhist geeks podcasts and an american zen monk seemed to be doing something similar for his retreats, challenging his students during interviews to just stop the bullshit and just look.

• Dharmadhatu

  12 Jan 12, 20:09

  Originally posted by Jui:

  Pretty incredible that no-nonsense direct pointing combined with the impersonality of the internet can bring results so quickly. I wonder if given a few more years people like Ciaran and Stephen will deepen this to the depths that buddhism has reached.

  Interestingly, I was re-listening to some old buddhist geeks podcasts and an american zen monk seemed to be doing something similar for his retreats, challenging his students during interviews to just stop the bullshit and just look.

  i read on one of the blog, the guy had 'realised' non-self but when he went out to approach a 'hot gal', he felt fear and later he was embarrassed when he was rejected. etc etc...

  I think this means that the view is still on the conceptual level.

   

• An Eternal Now

  12 Jan 12, 21:44

  Not everyone on the ruthlesstruth roll realized anatta. There can also be different levels of understanding. It depends so I cannot speak for all. I don't think shane's understanding is conceptual. @jui: unless they contemplate and learn buddha's teachings, it is difficult to gain furtther clarity beyond what they realized. Right view is very important. As Thusness said, tho RT people have realization, they don't know the "next step". Thusness asked me not to spread ruthless truth here for this reason. However I think direct path pointing is very effective and powerful (I and thusness ourselves followed similar approaches even before hearing ruthlesstruth) so I think there are some merits and inspiration from their approaches.
• Dharmadhatu

  12 Jan 12, 21:53

  yes, the direct approach is very good, i will be exploring the liberation unleashed website.

  what i like about this approach is that it is completely open and lets everyone get a chance at liberation ... the path is not that difficult or far-away and not exclusive and everyone has a chance.

   

• Dawnfirstlight

  13 Jan 12, 08:25

  Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:

  In the first place, Buddha is saying there is no 'us'. So the question of belonging / controlling does not arise.

  The way you are saying is assuming there is a 'us'.  According to how you say, even if the body does not belong / controlled by 'us', there is still a 'us' somewhere else.  This is not what Buddha teaching.

   

   

   

   

  I know there's no "us". 缘起性空. To convince someone there's no "us", first of all we have to convince them that the bodies are not theirs. We are just combinations 因缘和�。

• Dharmadhatu

  13 Jan 12, 13:43

  @Dawnfirstlight,

  I found an article, talking similar things ...

  http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Article_Classical_Liberation.html

   

   

• Dawnfirstlight

  13 Jan 12, 16:28

  Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:

  @Dawnfirstlight,

  I found an article, talking similar things ...

  http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Article_Classical_Liberation.html

   

   

  Nice article. I copied it out for those who are interested.I talked to people who are non Buddhists, they found it difficult to understand what does Buddha mean by "no I". They began to agree with Buddha when I told them that we could not control our body from aging, falling sick etc. Though this is not the essence but only the basic. At least they agree that the bodies are not ours because we have no control over it.

  Classical Liberation

  Many refer to the various Buddhist practices, as well as the eastern non-Buddhist practices, as the classical approaches to Liberation. In many cases, this is seen as the only way.

  The primary tool, along with morality and wisdom, in reaching the reward in these classical approaches is the practice of meditation. Meditation allows one to go within and begin the work needed to better understand what is happening with the mind and body.

  Throughout the Buddhist discourses, we can find teachings that point to ultimate reality. This ultimate reality is the understanding of Anatta or non-self. In an early Buddhist discourse called the “Anattalakkhana Sutta” [SN 21.59], translated as non-self characteristic, the Buddha clearly points out that there is “no self” or no ownership of the body, our feelings, perceptions, thoughts or consciousness.

  He made it clear that if we actually owned these things, we would be able to control our emotions and also have the ability to fully control sickness as well as stop the aging and death process of the body. Since everything is in continual instability, impermanent, and in a constant state of change, there cannot be any control outside of being free from the desire to be in control in the first place.

  In the “Anattalakkhana Sutta” the Buddha said the realization of non-self brings about a series of mental events that lead to Liberation. This results in freedom from the desire for control. This Liberation is our freedom from suffering. The Buddha stated that once non-self is seen, there is disenchantment with the body and mind. This turns into a dispassion that produces a release.

  This release is the un-fettering or un-chaining from the very things that have been preventing freedom. This is the release from the attachment to the self.

  With the ending of the attachment to the self, comes the ending of striving for completion or for the personal fulfillment to become something other than what we presently are.

  There is a simple saying that goes like this: “No self, no problem.” This is a true statement in the respect that when problems arise and are confronted with an absence of self, these so called problems are seen more as a situation and furthermore as simply an experience and nothing personal. The result is that it is much easier to be a part of this thing called life.

  The Buddha obviously wanted everyone to realize non-self and to see through the illusion of the self. This was his life’s work.

  He did this work for fifty years. He had many methods of pointing this out to people. He knew some people had to sincerely practice meditation to help them see this realization, and he also had his very effective direct approaches. It is mentioned in the “Bahiya Sutta” that at one time while the Buddha was in a hurry, he was approached by an ascetic called Bahiya who had asked for a teaching that would liberate him.

  The Buddha then quickly said only what was necessary to awaken Bahiya:

  1. "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.”

  In the Buddha’s quick instructions is a method for realizing non-self. Through hearing these words, Bahiya was liberated. He got the “push” that was needed at the proper time.

  Getting the push at the right time seems to be the key for many practitioners. People are “Waking Up” as if they were on a razor’s edge, teetering between confusion and Liberation. Many people only need a push in the right direction to fall onto the side of clarity and truth and a realization of who they are or are not.

  Each of us has a duty to fulfill. This duty is to move toward Liberation from the bindings of the identity with the self and the problems this false identity causes. This can be a part of whatever practice you currently have.

  Meditation is a wonderful method to prepare one for Liberation. It seems to clear the way for selfless reality as it unfolds. Many long-time meditators report “Waking Up” quickly and suddenly by the mere insight that arises from that push in the form of a proposed question or during a dialogue.

  The practice of meditation seems to help the process, but some feel it is not essential since people have “Woken Up” without any prior practice of formal meditation.

  Contemplation and inquiry, whether in or out of formal meditation, seems to be very beneficial, and there are likely many other practices not mentioned here that help prepare one for Liberation.

  It must be said at this time that the biggest deterrent; the greatest thing that prevents Awakening, is the belief that it cannot happen right now! With this false belief, you will not stand a chance.

  Liberation. It can happen. It is happening, and it is available NOW!

  .............

  This guest article was written by Shane Wilson -

• Fugazzi

  13 Jan 12, 17:09

  stop the bullshit and just look. - how so very true!
• An Eternal Now

  13 Jan 12, 18:28

  It should be clarified that the point isn't in 'just looking'. It is in the investigation.

  Some clarification what 'looking' means:

  
  

   me:  listen

  it's not about staring into space, waiting for the insight to hit

  it's about seeing the shape of life

  life is flowing, one unbroken flow of things

  in this, all things are contained

  all things that exist, do so in reality

  and reality is this, this one unbroken flow

  we live our lives thinking

  that we are watching this flow

  that this flow is happening to us

  that this flow of experience is being experienced BY something

  there is nothing before it

  
  

   Christopher:  we ARE the flow no separation!

  
  

   me:  no christopher

  we are not the flow

  the flow is

  there is no us

  this is the core mistake of eastern spirituality

  the core barrier to freedom for those in the eastern tradition

  i call it

  the polar north of philosophical wrong

  think of it like this

  life is happening, but it's not happening to anyone

  love is real, but no-one is loving, there is just love

  hate is real, but no-one is hating, there is just hate

  peace is real but no-one is peaceful, there is just peace

  the point is this

  that the idea of a thing that is essentially you

  this is the fiction

  there is nothing like that which exists in reality

  this can be seen

  it is this seeing

  which is irreversible

  it cannot be unseen

  ever

  and this is the permanent shift

  the sages refer to as enlightenment

  the polar north of philosophical wrong is

  to equate the prime fiction

  with the prime reality

  that the fundamental lie - the lie of self

  is conflated with the fundamental truth - the truth of being

  does this make sense to you?

  
  

  ......

  
  

  the only permanent shift that the human brain is capable of

  is recognition

  recognition of a real pattern, a real contour, a real quality of life

  and the one quality that you need to look for

  and find

  is that there is no you living this life

  that the idea of christopher is just that - an idea

  it is not outside the flow of things experiencing them

  it is INSIDE the flow of things

  as one more idea

  it has always been so

  now

  when I say look

  i do not mean

  stare blankly into space

  agreeing that there is no you

  ok?

  what i mean is this

  there is ACTUALLY no you, in REAL LIFE

  there NEVER WAS

  and CANNOT BE

  everything about you is a fiction

  see this

  look

  look at the truth, christopher

  be honest

  look

  right now, actually look

  
  

  ...

  
  

  if you're trying to look for the 'right' thing

  you're not really looking for the actual thing

  here's a thought for you christopher

  maybe this is all shit

  maybe there is no liberation

  maybe there is a you

  living your life

  experiencing your experience

  all that jazz

  what will get you this

  is not the looking in and of itself

  it is the looking at the REAL truth

  and that means

  whatever it is

  WHATEVER it is

  so instead of believing REALLY hard that this is real

  and trying to contort your mind into the right shape that you think

  can pass through the gateless gate of legend

  instead of this

  find the truth

  the real truth

  the ACTUAL truth

  what is REALLY true here?

  don't agree with the idea that you think will save you

  don't just spit back to me "yes, Ciaran, there is no me."

  instead

  investigate

  find out

  for yourself

  now

  find out

  dig

  is it REALLY true

  that there was NEVER a you

  that it was ALWAYS a story

  that there was NEVER ANYTHING real that it referred to

  that it is not your life

  just life

  not your mind

  just mind

  not your soul

  just soul

  find the truth

  
  

  
  

  ...

  
  

  
  

  take orcs from lord of the rings

  to discover that orcs from lord of the rings aren't real

  you don't just stare out the window, not seeing orcs

  and wait for the insight to land

  you look at the fiction of orcs, you look at reality, you compare the two

  you compare the story with the real

  you look at how that fiction is created, sustained

  you see the fictional nature of it

  and the scale of that fiction

  now listen

  if it is actually true

  that there is no self

  at all

  what this means is

  your ENTIRE LIFE has been lived in the shadow of this fiction

  in the SERVICE of this fiction

  and staring at the void

  waiting for enlightenment to land

  is useless

  look at the fiction of you

  see that it is a fiction

  see the truth of this

  find the truth of this

  and while,

  yes

  something does need to find it

  YOU do not

  there is no you

  it needs to be seen

  but YOU don't need to see it

  because no you is necessary

  for seeing to occur

  no you is necessary

  for ANYTHING to occur

  ever

  
  

  ....

  
  

  SIMPLE TRUTH

  this is not complex

  this is not big

  it is just the way things are

  there is no you living life

  there is no you at all

  there is just life

  and all the many details of the story of christopher

  the story of YOU

  cannot make you real

  you are not there

  at all

  life is

  mind

  heart

  soul

  there is no you

  really

  check

  actually check this

  and christopher - if you say "I get it", let me tell you

  no you don't, christopher

  no you don't

  and you need to challenge that

  hard

  look for the truth, christopher

  life is flowing, there is no controller, no subject, no experiencer

  we think of life like a cinema screen

  we're in the audience watching it

  being moved by it

  experiencing it

  seeing it

  there is no audience, christopher

  there's just the screen

  it is the whole of reality

  don't

  take

  my

  word

  for it

  is this true?

  not 'do you agree'

  NOT

  do you agree

  INSTEAD

  is this TRUE?

  let that ONE question burn in your mind, that ONE question

  is this ACTUALLY true?

  now look, look at life, not life in a mystical sense, just real life, the life that's happening right now

  
  

  (Ciaran)

• Fugazzi

  13 Jan 12, 19:10

  There is no concluding ... when one is seeing There is already a conclusion ... when one is looking. One cannot see for ... but one can look for .... @ An Eternal Now. I dont agree or disagree but it is an article that allows for ....
• An Eternal Now

  13 Jan 12, 19:32

  I'm not sure what you mean by concluding.

  However when the realization that There is no You hits you, then the view of self is seen to be delusional. It is not a conclusion based on inference, but a seeing through of a delusion as delusion.

  It is like realizing 'there never was santa claus!' You can no longer believe it, and it can never be unseen.

  What matters here is realization.

  In seeing always just the seen, the shapes colours forms, never a seer.

  In hearing always just sounds, no hearer.

  In thinking always just thoughts, no thinker.

• Fugazzi

  13 Jan 12, 20:25

  By not concluding - it is implied that one remains open to being ''receiving'', open to being ''receptive'' and it is simply flowing - like a river, the only certainty is that of being ... of course, the human mind is such that it will try to capture and hold it and make it permanent. The only permanent thing is that of changing and yet not changing (it is a phenomenon of paradox! Ps - when one has knowledge or comes with knowledge of eg, what is success, what is nirvana, one's knowledge is bound to impinge/encroach on isness of ...There are no absolutes and i say that cos as long as one is in the mind-body one may interpret according to one's idea of. Knowing cannot happen in memory or the imagination. The latter is psychological and the knowing is a here-now phenomenon.
• An Eternal Now

  13 Jan 12, 20:56

  One thing I have understood over the years is that practicing being Here/Now is not the same as realizing 'there is no you'.

  I have read The Power of Now in 2006, have experienced Presence on and off since, but it is not only until 2010 that I have realized the truth about no-self.

  When no self is realized, one does not need to place effort to maintain 'suchness'... without the sense of a seer, perceiver, agent, naturally experience becomes direct, intimate, non-dual, immediate, etc.

  But it is not by cultivating the 'non-dual, immediate' but rather it is the natural result of seeing through the delusion, leaving the experience of suchness without the delusion of an experiencer.

• Dharmadhatu

  14 Jan 12, 14:55

  I wonder... Fugazzi, can you please read this thread

  http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/disease-of-non-conceptuality.html

   

   

• Fugazzi

  14 Jan 12, 18:30

  Thanks, I did go thru the site that u had recommended ....yes, it is relatively true but as I have mentioned before, there are no absolutes and each and everyone who purports to practice or not practice - and this is my experince and that is that all methods are traps and of course, one cannot ignore methods but being conscious of these does make a difference. I say that cos many a times one assumes that one looks at a person or things or ... as ti is but seldom does it transpire, what transpires is that of imposing one's color on what is transpiring. As for practices, i dont practice anything and to not read much though I am familiar with such authors, saints or whatever they are perceived to be. I dont believe/disbeilive nor do i agree or disagree !
• An Eternal Now

  15 Jan 12, 13:04

  Was going through some old convos with Thusness, found this.

  
  Session Start: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011

  
  (11:14 PM) Thusness: Don't over promote ruthlesstruth
  many of the blue status aren't anatta
  and that is not the way to teach
  (11:45 PM) AEN: oic..
  yeah
  i do notice that many have not realized anatta
  oic
  why is it not the way to teach
  (11:46 PM) Thusness: what are they teaching?
  everything isn't clear
  how is it that u intro ppl this site here and there
  instead of leading ppl to the right path with the right view
  there are so many good buddhist sites with right teaching $
  (11:47 PM) AEN: oic..
  (11:48 PM) Thusness: some don't even have non-dual
  and all these over claiming
  don't mislead ppl
  (11:48 PM) AEN: ic..
  (11:49 PM) Thusness: how things manifest is not clear
  anatta not clear
  non-dual not clear
  (11:49 PM) Thusness: there is not even experience of I AM
  (11:49 PM) AEN: oic
  yeah they dont talk about I AM
  i think its a mix of ppl in impersonality, non dual, and anatta
  i mean the site
  (11:50 PM) Thusness: not only that...there is no clear insight
  so don't anyhow claim about enlightenment
  and lead ppl to enlightenment
  (11:50 PM) AEN: but i think there are some who are clear about anatta there
  though not as many as they claimed
  (11:50 PM) Thusness: worst still overclaiming that insight of anatta arises
  this is pure nonsense
  what anatta...?
  din i tell u experience of no-mind is not anatta?
  (11:51 PM) AEN: oic
  yeah ciaran isn't talking about an experience though
  (11:52 PM) Thusness: from a scale of 1-10, i don't even rate it a 2
  don't anyhow intro ppl... that will only mislead ppl
  (11:52 PM) AEN: ic..
  (11:52 PM) Thusness: not even AF
  (11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
  (11:53 PM) Thusness: there is no short cut
  don't get mixed up and confuse
  out of 10 questions asked about anatta, i don't think they can pass even 1
  (11:54 PM) AEN: what qns
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: lead them to the right buddhist site
  (11:55 PM) AEN: oic
  but in terms of anatta not exactly a lot of buddhist sites have great clarity either
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: there is mahamudra
  u mean ruthlesstruth has clarity?
  (11:55 PM) AEN: not really
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: then?
  anatta must be understood with DO
  (11:56 PM) AEN: oic
  (11:56 PM) Thusness: don't create Buddha
  u r mis-representing buddhism
  I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha
  how is anatta the end of path?
  din i tell u it is only the beginning stage
  and from a scale of 1-10 in the bhumis, what has one understood?
  (12:00 AM) Thusness: understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning or rightly understanding liberation
  (12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:03 AM) Thusness: also do not give ppl the impression that anatta is the end of path
  (12:04 AM) AEN: ic..
  (12:05 AM) Thusness: also the releasing is still not there
  as for u, release ur contraction
  ur latent tendencies are still strong
  despite ur realization
  (12:06 AM) AEN: oic..
  means sense of self?
  (12:07 AM) Thusness: ur mind and body
  u r unable to let go non-dually
  means ur latent inherent tendencies are still very strong
  (12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:08 AM) Thusness: sit and let go of ur entire mind and body
  meet conditions and let go
  when u answer ur parents, treat it as a form of practice too
  smile in ur heart
  and be patient
  (12:10 AM) Thusness: after realization, meditate on the 6 entries and exits
  feel that whatever arises is primordially pure
  then allow it to meet daily matters...
  see how it arises...and understand the latent deep
  that is then true practice
  (12:11 AM) AEN: oic..
  letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...
  (12:15 AM) Thusness: no
  taht is completely wrong
  after anatta, u r able to experience whatever arises directly
  feel wholely
  (12:17 AM) AEN: yea
  (12:17 AM) Thusness: yet u are still contracting
  ur entirely body is imprint to hold
  (12:17 AM) AEN: oic
  (12:18 AM) Thusness: letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go
  (12:19 AM) AEN: ic..
  (12:19 AM) Thusness: means ur body and mind must let go
  by its own accord, non-dually
  not by disassociation
  practice this
  (12:21 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:21 AM) Thusness: ur mind, ur thoughts, ur body
  without ground, without center, without essence
  like painting on a pond

  
  Another conversation with Thusness.

  
  AEN: Simpo advise people to go straight to realise anatta and bypass I AM. Do u think it is advisable?
  Thusness: This is one area I hv been thinking. The main issue is the degree of luminosity. But in no mind or AF, we see such experience too.
  AEN: Oic... I realise anatta in ruthlesstruth is rare. Most people are talking about impersonality, not even non dual. After talking with them, I find that people still don't experience or realize no dualistic separation.
  Thusness: Anatta is about right view...
  AEN: Ic.. Ciaran realized no self right. Except most of his students don't... Not even non dual
  Thusness: Yes. Unfortunately, he cannot clearly discern the grayscale of no-self (comments: i.e. impersonality, non-dual, anatta)
  AEN: yeah

• simpo_

  15 Jan 12, 17:13

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

   

  
  Another conversation with Thusness.

  
  AEN: Simpo advise people to go straight to realise anatta and bypass I AM. Do u think it is advisable?
  

  He he..

  My theory is that i wasted too much time in I AM phase. Had someone pointed out earlier, i wouldn't have beat around the bush for so long. As for Thusness's pointing out, I am very grateful.. because it opened up a pathway for further progress. I just don't wish someone go through such wasteful journey as mine :)

  Personally, my thinking is that I AM phase has its importance in getting one to realised the all-pervading and 'deathless' nature. As for someone realising no-self (straight), he/she may not have the benefit of such a strong conviction in deathlessness. However, my idea is that for such practitioners, they will eventually come face to face with deathlessness... in the later stage of the path. For the pure I AM realiser, this definite realisation of deathlessness comes first.

  Just my opinion only.

• Dharmadhatu

  15 Jan 12, 21:55

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Was going through some old convos with Thusness, found this.

  
  Session Start: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011

  
  (11:14 PM) Thusness: Don't over promote ruthlesstruth
  many of the blue status aren't anatta
  and that is not the way to teach
  (11:45 PM) AEN: oic..
  yeah
  i do notice that many have not realized anatta
  oic
  why is it not the way to teach
  (11:46 PM) Thusness: what are they teaching?
  everything isn't clear
  how is it that u intro ppl this site here and there
  instead of leading ppl to the right path with the right view
  there are so many good buddhist sites with right teaching $
  (11:47 PM) AEN: oic..
  (11:48 PM) Thusness: some don't even have non-dual
  and all these over claiming
  don't mislead ppl
  (11:48 PM) AEN: ic..
  (11:49 PM) Thusness: how things manifest is not clear
  anatta not clear
  non-dual not clear
  (11:49 PM) Thusness: there is not even experience of I AM
  (11:49 PM) AEN: oic
  yeah they dont talk about I AM
  i think its a mix of ppl in impersonality, non dual, and anatta
  i mean the site
  (11:50 PM) Thusness: not only that...there is no clear insight
  so don't anyhow claim about enlightenment
  and lead ppl to enlightenment
  (11:50 PM) AEN: but i think there are some who are clear about anatta there
  though not as many as they claimed
  (11:50 PM) Thusness: worst still overclaiming that insight of anatta arises
  this is pure nonsense
  what anatta...?
  din i tell u experience of no-mind is not anatta?
  (11:51 PM) AEN: oic
  yeah ciaran isn't talking about an experience though
  (11:52 PM) Thusness: from a scale of 1-10, i don't even rate it a 2
  don't anyhow intro ppl... that will only mislead ppl
  (11:52 PM) AEN: ic..
  (11:52 PM) Thusness: not even AF
  (11:52 PM) AEN: oic..
  (11:53 PM) Thusness: there is no short cut
  don't get mixed up and confuse
  out of 10 questions asked about anatta, i don't think they can pass even 1
  (11:54 PM) AEN: what qns
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: lead them to the right buddhist site
  (11:55 PM) AEN: oic
  but in terms of anatta not exactly a lot of buddhist sites have great clarity either
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: there is mahamudra
  u mean ruthlesstruth has clarity?
  (11:55 PM) AEN: not really
  (11:55 PM) Thusness: then?
  anatta must be understood with DO
  (11:56 PM) AEN: oic
  (11:56 PM) Thusness: don't create Buddha
  u r mis-representing buddhism
  I don't even dare say I understand the profound teaching of Buddha
  how is anatta the end of path?
  din i tell u it is only the beginning stage
  and from a scale of 1-10 in the bhumis, what has one understood?
  (12:00 AM) Thusness: understand clearly that it is only the bare beginning or rightly understanding liberation
  (12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:03 AM) Thusness: also do not give ppl the impression that anatta is the end of path
  (12:04 AM) AEN: ic..
  (12:05 AM) Thusness: also the releasing is still not there
  as for u, release ur contraction
  ur latent tendencies are still strong
  despite ur realization
  (12:06 AM) AEN: oic..
  means sense of self?
  (12:07 AM) Thusness: ur mind and body
  u r unable to let go non-dually
  means ur latent inherent tendencies are still very strong
  (12:07 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:08 AM) Thusness: sit and let go of ur entire mind and body
  meet conditions and let go
  when u answer ur parents, treat it as a form of practice too
  smile in ur heart
  and be patient
  (12:10 AM) Thusness: after realization, meditate on the 6 entries and exits
  feel that whatever arises is primordially pure
  then allow it to meet daily matters...
  see how it arises...and understand the latent deep
  that is then true practice
  (12:11 AM) AEN: oic..
  letting go non-dually is it like opening to everything as it is... everything is brilliantly happening but empty... there is no coming, going, movement, location, like the universe is a process of activities dissolving moment by moment... there isnt even 'a universe'...
  (12:15 AM) Thusness: no
  taht is completely wrong
  after anatta, u r able to experience whatever arises directly
  feel wholely
  (12:17 AM) AEN: yea
  (12:17 AM) Thusness: yet u are still contracting
  ur entirely body is imprint to hold
  (12:17 AM) AEN: oic
  (12:18 AM) Thusness: letting go non-dually means allow whatever arises to let go
  (12:19 AM) AEN: ic..
  (12:19 AM) Thusness: means ur body and mind must let go
  by its own accord, non-dually
  not by disassociation
  practice this
  (12:21 AM) AEN: oic..
  (12:21 AM) Thusness: ur mind, ur thoughts, ur body
  without ground, without center, without essence
  like painting on a pond

  
  Another conversation with Thusness.

  
  AEN: Simpo advise people to go straight to realise anatta and bypass I AM. Do u think it is advisable?
  Thusness: This is one area I hv been thinking. The main issue is the degree of luminosity. But in no mind or AF, we see such experience too.
  AEN: Oic... I realise anatta in ruthlesstruth is rare. Most people are talking about impersonality, not even non dual. After talking with them, I find that people still don't experience or realize no dualistic separation.
  Thusness: Anatta is about right view...
  AEN: Ic.. Ciaran realized no self right. Except most of his students don't... Not even non dual
  Thusness: Yes. Unfortunately, he cannot clearly discern the grayscale of no-self (comments: i.e. impersonality, non-dual, anatta)
  AEN: yeah

  @AEN, what's no-mind?  Can you explain or any articles?

   

• An Eternal Now

  15 Jan 12, 22:04

  @Simpo: Good points.. :)

  @Dharmadhatu: Yes. In my recent article http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html