Thanks AEN,
i find rereading again and again helps to drill in and refine imprints of right view
Some thoughts on what constitute right and wrong views from the below sutta.
MN 117 - Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
......right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions?'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
indeed. it is like the repetitiveness of sutra helps instill right view.
since many years ago, thusness tell me to summarize what i have learnt often as it helps me instill right view, and said this is an important factor that contributed to my experience and insight
by writing your own summary of right dharma understanding you are strengthening re inforcing right understanding
reading, learning, also has the same effect
if one who has right view- but still have some level of irritation. Can he really be liberated...? (i mean irritation as in causes by work or unpleasantness)
digress abit: sometimes... i do wonder if people really have eternalist / nihilist views... u see, people work, study, or talk about news, studies, work etc. Day to day, month to month. I can only see that they are busy with their schedules, deadlines etc. (much less to say about contemplation in dependent origination)
what view can you say that they have right now...? Secular views...? Or ignorance....?
how does it not sound nihilism?
then what's 妙有? it's dependent arising.
So now you see why you cannot say there is a “changing self” since to say a self changes is to imply a substance or reality that transforms or changes, no different from the more advanced phase of Hindu schools.
ok, maybe self is not a good word. i'm more thinking of units of mind/thoughts like animated films mechanism, one thought after another, dependent arising. it's so very close that not even Maitreya bodhisattva can discern the gap between the two mind/thoughts as stated in Avatamsaka sutra. like the mind1, mind2, mind3.... neither of them is real. as when u cling to mind1, it already become mind2. hence there's no permanent mind, yet does not reject the mind, hence not Nihilism. i think Hindu one think it's real as a Whole. hence think that there's permanent Self, Eternalist. they don't have dependent arising view.
this emptiness concept go with reality. there's no real reality. but does not reject reality, which is 妙有 dependent arising. or one can see it as atoms. yet atom is energy, no real substance.
dependent arising also does not mean there's a beginning. there's no beginning.
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Originally posted by 2009novice:if one who has right view- but still have some level of irritation. Can he really be liberated...? (i mean irritation as in causes by work or unpleasantness)
digress abit: sometimes... i do wonder if people really have eternalist / nihilist views... u see, people work, study, or talk about news, studies, work etc. Day to day, month to month. I can only see that they are busy with their schedules, deadlines etc. (much less to say about contemplation in dependent origination)
what view can you say that they have right now...? Secular views...? Or ignorance....?
Just a sharing... nothing definitive.
It can be said that we ourselve and collectively as a human civilisation has brought this onto ourselve.
Put it simply... excessive activities fuelled by desire (including work, socialising, entertainment etc) is bad for spiritual progress. However, this is also our own karmic condition and is blameless.
Best is to find sometime to be alone to clear off excessive desires.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:@sinweiy: we cannot say that just chanting/nian fo means having right view or just because you chant means you are in no danger of falling into wrong views.
This is because view is not dependent on your practice. View means a position, or a belief pertaining to self or reality. For example you can meditate and chant but still believe in an unchanging or eternal self, have a self-view, so you will not attain Buddhist awakening in this way. Or some people like Lee Kuan Yew also chant Catholic mantra, but he believes that the self annihilates after death – nihilist view.
The externalists like Hindus also practice mantra, however they hold strongly to the view of eternalism. The Hindus are eternalists.
Therefore, nian fo does not mean having right view. If you learn and understand dharma teachings, that is right view. But having an inferred right view does not mean enlightenment yet. Having a direct realization of the twofold emptiness is enlightenment, in which right view and others of the noble eightfold path are a requisite.
i think if does it right, no believing of what so ever thoughts/view can penetrate the nianfo samadhi. all views should be dropped of.. moreover it'll also be inpart with the power of Amitabha's virtue.
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@2009novice: self-view is latent in everybody. generally most materialist has an annihilationistic view - no rebirth, no karma, self ends in death. or those who have religions (non buddhist or buddhist with wrong understanding) believe that an eternal soul survives life after life.
then there are those of an agnostic type, doesnt mean they dont have self-view as they still view or cling to an existent self, however they have not made up their minds whether the self ceases or continues immortal after death.
buddhism on the other hand rejects self view altogether.
secular view is ignorance, ignorance here means not knowing the four noble truths. if you dont know four noble truths you will be trapped in secular pursuits and will not seek for nirvana.
forgot to answer 2009novice's main question:
having righr view does not mean you are liberated or awakened.
if your right view remains conceptual and inferred, maybe through reasoning and faith, that is essential as a factor for awakening, but is not awakening yet
if you are awakened by not just inferrential or conceptual understanding of anatta and emptiness but through a direct experiential realization of it, the least is you become a stream enterer
a stream enterer eradicated self view but has not eradicated other defilements or afflictions like anger, craving, etc
as you progress through the stages you will progressively eliminate the rest of the fetters or afflictions and attain complete liberation
yes, eventually,
Form is emptiness, emptiness IS form. Emptiness IS Fullness.
think we should do an indepth on dependent arising. something from Nagarjuna perhaps.
there were two schools in history of Mahayana, one more toward emptiness and one more toward dependent arising. this two is more of conflicting, normally they don't want their students to see the other's teaching scaring they'll be confused. there are schools that combine the two though. nowaday, most masters is into combining.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:@sinweiy: through chanting you can attain a state of thoughtlessness, but it does not mean you overcome self-view. Like you go to sleep, you also forget your beliefs, but when you come back from sleep you still hold the same beliefs.
Only realization can eradicate self view, samadhi alone cannot do it. Samadhi merely suspends defilements but does not permanently remove it. But when you realize originally no self, 本�没有我，then you will forever remove self view, it is like waking up from a dream, you realize all along your view of self is false
Before realization we should at least have an understanding of anatta and emptiness even though it is not yet experiential it can help in our path.
mostly in the records, they would have rid the self-view when they woke up on half the way of their practice. yea it's unlogical, but nian fo is that inconcievable. it's said even the 7th bhumni and below cannot discern the logic. hence it's easier for Ah gong and Ah ma that are more simple minded, instead for those who think too much.
beside by the time one achieved the nianfo samathi, Amitabha would have bring them to pureland before "waking" up again. ;)
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If there is the right pointing, right understanding and right contemplation, then with nian fo as an aid one can achieve realization. But if you just chant alone, I don't see it is possible if one does not have right understanding to attain realization. As said before other religions also do chanting but they don't attain enlightenment. Chanting alone is a form of shamatha which leads to samadhi, but if devoid of right view and contemplation as in vipasyana aspect like kong1�guan1，realization wont arise as chanting remains as a purely shamatha technique.
My point is, self-view can only be eradicated through realization. You pointed out about enlightenment in pure land which I do believe is valid, however that is more of other-power, relying on amitabha to attain rebirth and thereby awaken there.
Sutta MN 117 The Great Forty is about the Eight Fold Noble Path, i.e. The Fourth Noble Truth, which is the way that leads to the cessation of suffering. The sutta begins by stating what constituted Wrong Views, listing not believing in the efficacy of Kamma, Rebirth, and not believing in Enlightened Beings as wrong views. We can group these people as the Atheists, Nihilists, Sceptics, Determinists and some believers of certain Theistic religions.
At first glance, one may be also intrigued by the term not believing in ‘nothing sacrificed’ as wrong view, which would imply the sacrifice of living beings such as animals. One can find in DN5 Kutadanta Sutta what are considered right and wrong sacrifices. Here, right sacrifices are offerings that are bloodless and does not involved the taking of lives.
On what is Right Views, there is the Mundane Right View with effluents, i.e. kamma forming that lead to better rebirth and the Right View that is Supramundane that lead one to the cessation of Suffering, the Third Noble Truth.
There are many repetitions on the phase ‘Of those, right view is the forerunner’ This goes to show how important it is to start our practice and understanding of the Blessed One teachings on the right footing from the very beginning to ensure it does not lead us the wrong way, away from the path of the realization of the cessation of suffering.
should got more indepth knowledge to the other power and nianfo method from the teaching of Master Shan Tao or Master Oyi that equal to 念佛å�³æ˜¯æ— 上深妙禅 (to do with sudden awakening and that it's also a form of insight meditation).
æŒ�å��念佛与æ¢è§‚是完全å�¯ä»¥ä¸€è‡´çš„ã€‚å› ä¸ºä¸€å�¥ä½›å�·è“¦ç›´å¿µåŽ»ï¼Œæ�‚念ä¸�起便是æ¢ï¼›ä¸€å�¥ä½›å�·å¿ƒå¿µè€³å�¬ï¼Œæ˜Žæ˜ŽåŽ†åŽ†ä¾¿æ˜¯è§‚。
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Originally posted by simpo_:Just a sharing... nothing definitive.
It can be said that we ourselve and collectively as a human civilisation has brought this onto ourselve.
Put it simply... excessive activities fuelled by desire (including work, socialising, entertainment etc) is bad for spiritual progress. However, this is also our own karmic condition and is blameless.
Best is to find sometime to be alone to clear off excessive desires.
thx... suddenly recalled - 放下万缘
but i have a friend who have to work till late night- quite frequently... i guess he has no time to do homework
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:indeed. it is like the repetitiveness of sutra helps instill right view.
since many years ago, thusness tell me to summarize what i have learnt often as it helps me instill right view, and said this is an important factor that contributed to my experience and insight
by writing your own summary of right dharma understanding you are strengthening re inforcing right understanding
reading, learning, also has the same effect
yes, i should follow your example and sometimes write summaries of my own understanding in my journal. Thanks!
Originally posted by simpo_:Just a sharing... nothing definitive.
It can be said that we ourselve and collectively as a human civilisation has brought this onto ourselve.
Put it simply... excessive activities fuelled by desire (including work, socialising, entertainment etc) is bad for spiritual progress. However, this is also our own karmic condition and is blameless.
Best is to find sometime to be alone to clear off excessive desires.
yes, time spent alone is very helpful to me! In fact i needed alot of time alone to reflect and practice to offload the years of low-grade anxieties and other habitual patterns that i had implanted into myself from the earlier part of my life. I attribute my time alone and practices and readings done during that time to be one major factor that helped me to become ripe and interested enough to tackle the important questions of insight into reality... the present pace of life in current society is extremely unconducive to spiritual progress in my opinion, even though we should try our best to remain mindful and to simplify our commitments and activities.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:forgot to answer 2009novice's main question:
having righr view does not mean you are liberated or awakened.
if your right view remains conceptual and inferred, maybe through reasoning and faith, that is essential as a factor for awakening, but is not awakening yet
if you are awakened by not just inferrential or conceptual understanding of anatta and emptiness but through a direct experiential realization of it, the least is you become a stream enterer
a stream enterer eradicated self view but has not eradicated other defilements or afflictions like anger, craving, etc
as you progress through the stages you will progressively eliminate the rest of the fetters or afflictions and attain complete liberation
thx... erm ok last not to appear draggy- if a person read a book about 4 noble truth but he/she also appreciates it (体会) it... can it be considered as realization...?
Eradicated self view sounds abit complicated yet... most books impart knowledge but to have eradicated self view is another thing...