Are living by Precepts/Paramitas and Jhanas states a prerequisite to realizing Anatta/Sunyata?
Most of us would have read articles by advance practitioners of Buddhism in their writings relating to their personal realization and experience of the Blessed One teaching of Not-Self or the doctrine of Emptiness. There are also some very useful, helpful and insightful guides and information available on how to go about achieving it as well. The question here is:
1. How important and vital are living by the precepts including right livelihood, or the conception of the Paramitas of Charity, Moral restraints and observances, Forbearance and Meditation play in calming and concentrating one’s mind sufficiently in order for one to experience and realize these two states?
2. There are basically three positions regarding the role of Jhana as a condition to transcendental discernment (Wisdom). One is that, jh�na is not necessary for any of the four levels of Awakening and that there is a class of individuals called "dry insight" meditators who are "discernment-released" based on a level of concentration lower than that of jh�na. A second position believes that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning and that jh�na is necessary for the attainment of non-returning and Arahantship, but not for the lower levels of Awakening. The third position states that the attainment of at least the first level of jh�na is essential for all four levels of Awakening. So, is jhana necessary for mental unification in order to hold the five hindrances at bay and aid in the eventual attainment of insight knowledge?
for one, what does Noble Eightfold Path say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
The Noble Eightfold Path (PÄ�li: ariyo aá¹á¹haá¹…giko maggo, Sanskrit: Ä�ryÄ�á¹£á¹Ä�á¹…gamÄ�rga, Sinhala: ආර්ය අà·�්ටà·�ංගික මà·�ර්ග),[1] is one of the principal teachings of the Buddha, who described it as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha) and the achievement of self-awakening.[2] It is used to develop insight into the true nature of phenomena (or reality) and to eradicate greed, hatred, and delusion. The Noble Eightfold Path is the fourth of the Buddha's Four Noble Truths; the first element of the Noble Eightfold Path is, in turn, an understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is also known as the Middle Path or Middle Way.
All eight elements of the Path begin with the word "right", which translates the word samyañc (in Sanskrit) or sammÄ� (in PÄ�li). These denote completion, togetherness, and coherence, and can also suggest the senses of "perfect" or "ideal".[3]
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Originally posted by sinweiy:for one, what does Noble Eightfold Path say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
The Noble Eightfold Path (PÄ�li: ariyo aá¹á¹haá¹…giko maggo, Sanskrit: Ä�ryÄ�á¹£á¹Ä�á¹…gamÄ�rga, Sinhala: ආර්ය අà·�්ටà·�ංගික මà·�ර්ග),[1] is one of the principal teachings of the Buddha, who described it as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha) and the achievement of self-awakening.[2] It is used to develop insight into the true nature of phenomena (or reality) and to eradicate greed, hatred, and delusion. The Noble Eightfold Path is the fourth of the Buddha's Four Noble Truths; the first element of the Noble Eightfold Path is, in turn, an understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is also known as the Middle Path or Middle Way.
All eight elements of the Path begin with the word "right", which translates the word samyañc (in Sanskrit) or sammÄ� (in PÄ�li). These denote completion, togetherness, and coherence, and can also suggest the senses of "perfect" or "ideal".[3]
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yes.... without morality, right speech, right action, right livelihood... is not equivalent to practise the Noble 8 fold path...
it's the begining "Right" word that make it a bit more profound, link to the idea of sunyata/emptiness. like especially
Right knowledge and right liberation
Right knowledge is seeing things as they really are by direct experience, not as they appear to be, nor as the practitioner wants them to be, but as they truly are. A result of Right Knowledge is the tenth factor - Right liberation.[58]
These two factors are the end result of correctly practicing the noble eightfold path, which arise during the practice of right concentration. The first to arise is right knowledge: this is where deep insight into the ultimate reality arises. The last to arise is right liberation: this is where self-awakening occurs and the practitioner has reached the pinnacle of their practice.
back to the topic, i think it's tag along with realisation eventually. can say it's automatically sync to realisation eventually. like paramita. as taugh by old master, if one is into generosity, practice it ALL the way, eventually, one will have all the paramita including transcendental wisdom. if u find that u prefer to practice loving-kindness, then master it ALL the way to the very core, and u will get all the paramita. if u are into renunciation, do it ALL the way, then one day u will also realise transcendental wisdom. it's like our fingers all link back to the palm. all the parimitas are link into one. why u think it does not link is because one has yet to practice to the core of it, u are still at the finger potion. the key is also about focusing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81
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http://book.bfnn.org/books2/1640.htm
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- mod no do job so i must do loh -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
back to the topic, i think it's tag along with realisation eventually. can say it's automatically sync to realisation eventually. like paramita. as taugh by old master, if one is into generosity, practice it ALL the way, eventually, one will have all the paramita including transcendental wisdom. if u find that u prefer to practice loving-kindness, then master it ALL the way to the very core, and u will get all the paramita. if u are into renunciation, do it ALL the way, then one day u will also realise transcendental wisdom. it's like our fingers all link back to the palm. all the parimitas are link into one. why u think it does not link is because one has yet to practice to the core of it, u are still at the finger potion. the key is also about focusing.
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Interesting, what you said. Did you hear about this analogy somewhere or it just came to mind?
In his book ‘Mind Like Fire Unbound’ Thanissaro Bhikkhu says - Stream-winners and Once-returners are those who have fully developed virtue, Non-returners are those who have fully developed virtue & concentration (jhanas), and Arahants are those who have fully developed all three parts of the path: virtue, concentration, & discernment (wisdom).
….Stream-winners have developed discernment to a fairly high degree. In fact, the unvarying definition of Stream-winners is that they have 'seen with discernment,' and their level of Awakening is called the arising of the Dhamma eye.
then it's concur. :)
Did you hear about this analogy somewhere or it just came to mind?
from "old master" (i.e. MCK) regarding the paramita. the finger to palm analogy, hmm, kind of forgot if he did said it exactly, but i simply had it in mind. can also use rivers to the sea analogy. :)
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On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"
"Yes, friend," the monks responded.
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?
"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Ah strange the link doesn't go to that page...
I'll just type it out:
The Suhrllekha comments:
Wisdom does not arise without concentration.
The Bodhicharyavatara states:
Knowing that insight arises from tranquility
And clears the defilements of the mind
One should first achieve tranquility.
Similar comments are made in the Sravakabhumi, the Bhavanakrama, and the Prajnaparamitopadesa. Those who rely upon this approach say that the stages of meditation necessitate the attainment of tranquility as a priori to the achievement of insight. They reason that one does not achieve tranquility without perfect ease. Without achieving tranquility and perfect ease one cannot realize insight and the attendant perfect ease. This approach is incorrect because one can experience both tranquility and insight without achieving perfect ease. Why is this so? As the Bodhisattvabhumi, the Abhidharmasamucchaya, and the Prajnaparamitopadesa state, the nine stages for achieving tranquility, beginning with the quieting of the mind, constitute the stage of tranquility, whereas the four insights achieved through the determination of aspects of reality comprise the stage of insight. it is hard for beginners at the early stage of tranquility and insight to achieve perfect ease. Furthermore, they believe there can only exist an ultimate kind of tranquility and insight, and perfect ease must accompany both. By extension, this position would only allow for the existence of one ultimate path.
The Samdhinirmochana-sutra and Prajnaparamitopadesa state:
If this is so, how is it that meditations unaccompanied by perfect ease are not meditations of tranquility and insight?
The preceding was intended to be a yardstick for measuring the realization of ultimate tranquility and insight. Were it not so, many internal contradictions and fallacies in terms of Buddha's words and logic would arise. The statement that one should meditate upon insight by relying on tranquility was intended for individuals on the gradual path. As there are those who relaize insight without even achieving tranquility, the Abhidharmasamucchaya says:
Some achieve insight without tranqulity, and through insight they attain tranquility.
I have heard that Vajrayana Buddhists don't aim to attain anything more than first jhana for whatever reason, and that the 9 stages of tranquility end in the first jhana.
In my experience it is not too difficult to experience jhanas... but to master tranquility is another matter that requires disciplined practice.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have heard that Vajrayana Buddhists don't aim to attain anything more than first jhana for whatever reason, and that the 9 stages of tranquility end in the first jhana.
In my experience it is not too difficult to experience jhanas... but to master tranquility is another matter that requires disciplined practice.
"In my experience it is not too difficult to experience jhanas... but to master tranquility is another matter that requires disciplined practice."
In the Visuddhi Magga, the experience of the first Jhana is stated as - “Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.”
The third factor of “rapture” arises as a result of joy or gladness with the abandonment of the five hindrances. When rapture arises, the whole body becomes tranquil leading to happiness. Tranquility arises in the various state of access, momentary and absorption concentration.
My understanding is that, when one has experience the first Jhana stage of absorption concentration, one’s mind would be well concentrated and tranquil one would be able to meditate (Visuddhi Magga) “for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day”. Tranquility would then not be a problem anymore when one have experience any of the Jhana stages.
Originally posted by Aik TC:"In my experience it is not too difficult to experience jhanas... but to master tranquility is another matter that requires disciplined practice."
In the Visuddhi Magga, the experience of the first Jhana is stated as - “Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion.”
The third factor of “rapture” arises as a result of joy or gladness with the abandonment of the five hindrances. When rapture arises, the whole body becomes tranquil leading to happiness. Tranquility arises in the various state of access, momentary and absorption concentration.
My understanding is that, when one has experience the first Jhana stage of absorption concentration, one’s mind would be well concentrated and tranquil one would be able to meditate (Visuddhi Magga) “for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day”. Tranquility would then not be a problem anymore when one have experience any of the Jhana stages.
Oh yes what you said is perfectly consistent with my experience.
What I meant is this: it is not difficult to experience jhana/tranquility. But it is not as easy to *master* jhana/tranquility, which requires disciplined practice.
What I mean by mastery is ability to enter samadhi the moment/the very second you sit down. Thusness and my Taiwanese teacher can do this, I can't. And this tranquility becomes a base in your daily experience.
But even right now, I can enter into a sort of mini samadhi through the six sense entries in daily life... owing certain insights.
Are you cultivating Jhanas nowadays?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Oh yes what you said is perfectly consistent with my experience.
What I meant is this: it is not difficult to experience jhana/tranquility. But it is not as easy to *master* jhana/tranquility, which requires disciplined practice.
What I mean by mastery is ability to enter samadhi the moment/the very second you sit down. Thusness and my Taiwanese teacher can do this, I can't. And this tranquility becomes a base in your daily experience.
But even right now, I can enter into a sort of mini samadhi through the six sense entries in daily life... owing certain insights.
Are you cultivating Jhanas nowadays?
Yes, one can experience the five factors of the state of jhana in access concentration, but for me, it is only for a very short period of time and when conditions are right. It is certainly not easy to master like the way Thusness and your Taiwanese have accomplished.