The Controversy about Rebirth and the ‘Safe Bet’
In the words of Thanissaro Bhikku in his book ‘The Paradox of Becoming’, he states;
"The experience of his Awakening (the Buddha) is what gave him proof that becoming has both psychological and cosmological dimensions—within the moment and stretching over lifetimes—with a parallel pattern in each." One can assumed that during the third watch on the night of his Awakening, the Buddha may have focused on the mental states of birth, aging, and death and from there, gained insight into how these processes functioned in the cosmos as well.
To Buddhists, one who has yet to attain the stage of cessation of suffering on the break-up of the body after death, would reappears again in any of the six plane of existence based on one’s past kammic actions. a
The question of cosmological rebirth hence, is more of an interest and importance to laity with the goal to obtaining a good rebirth, then said, ordained monks whose aim are to transcend rebirth entirely in one lifetime itself. However, there are fundamentalists and others, such as the Thai Forest Tradition which does not place much importance on the subject of rebirth and emphasizing such doctrine as the Paticcasamuppada as a single lifetime mental process that does not contradict the Buddha’s Teaching of Anatta.
The concept of rebirth as can be found in the Suttas should be taken as a belief and not something that can be experienced or conclusively verified. Rebirth in this write-up is from the perspective of the Theravada tradition only. In any case, the beliefs in rebirth should give one the confidence in the truth of the working of the doctrine of kamma.
What the Suttas Says
AN2.18 - Ekamsena Sutta: Categorically - "Given that I have declared, Ananda, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done,……one dies confused; and — on the break-up of the body, after death — one reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. "I say categorically, Ananda, that good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct should be done."……and — on the break-up of the body, after death — one reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.
MN19 - Dvedhavitakka Sutta: Two Sorts of Thinking - "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings.
I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
SN12.2 - Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising - "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.
MN9 - Sammàdiññhisuttaü: Right View - There is, friends. When the noble disciple knows birth, the arising of birth, the cessation of birth, and the path to the cessation of birth, with this much, the view rectified, endowed with unwavering faith in the Teaching he comes to this good Teaching.
What is birth, what is the arising of birth, what is the cessation of birth, and what is the path to the cessation of birth? Birth, origin, coming to be, rebirth, the arising of the masses, the gain of mental faculties, in this and other class of beings, is birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth; with the cessation of being there is cessation of birth. This same noble eightfold path is the path to the cessation of birth, such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
There are also many other Suttas on the subject of rebirth such as in AN8.36, 4.126, SN1.47, 3.4, 3.17, 3.20, 12.38, just to mention a few.
In SN22.86, the Buddha declared, “Both formerly & now, it is only Stress that I describe, and the cessation of Stress." To some, any discourse that is not in accord with the teaching of the Third Noble Truth on the cessation of stress and suffering should not be taken too literally and is a teaching of not much importance. (One would assume in the case of ordained monks). Hence the teaching of rebirth is interpreted by such believers as a series of becoming, birth and death of our mental states instead.
Support Base for Becoming
Kamma, Consciousness, and Craving are the three necessary requirements for becoming to arise follow by birth to occur. The Buddha uses the analogy of Field (kamma), Seed (consciousness), and Moisture (craving) to explain the production of renewed becoming. Kamma as the results of past & present intentions contains the possibility of becoming with craving of the four nutriments giving rise to consciousness and together providing a particular opportunity for the eventual production of renewed becoming in the future within the range of possibilities from the results of past and present kamma.
AN3.76 - Bhava Sutta: Becoming - "Lord, this word, 'becoming, becoming' — to what extent is there becoming?"
"Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality, (form, formless)-property, would sensuality, (form, formless)-becoming be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus kamma (result of both past & present intention) is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a (lower, middling, formless) property respectively. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
MN136 - Maha-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Great Exposition of Kamma - 19. "So, Ananda, there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)."
MN38 - Mahatanhasankhayasuttam: Destruction of Craving - "Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth.
"Now, these four nutriments have what as their cause, what as their origination, through what are they born, through what are they brought into being? These four nutriments have craving as their cause, craving as their origination, are born from craving, are brought into being from craving.
…..Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, becoming arises. Because of becoming, birth arises. Because of birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.
SN12.64 - Atthi Raga Sutta: Where There is Passion - "There are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
"Where there is passion, delight, & craving for the nutriment of physical food, (contact, intellectual intention, and consciousness,) consciousness lands there and increases. Where consciousness lands and increases there is the alighting of name-&-form. Where there is the alighting of name-&-form, there is the growth of fabrications. Where there is the growth of fabrications, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging, & death, together, I tell you, with sorrow, affliction, & despair.
The Carrier of Rebirth
MN38 - Mahatanhasankhayasuttam: Destruction of Craving - "Monks, the descent of the embryo occurs with the union of three things. There is the case where there is no union of the mother & father, the mother is not in her season, and a gandhabba is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. There is the case where there is a union of the mother & father, and the mother is in her season, but a gandhabba is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. But when there is a union of the mother & father, the mother is in her season, and a gandhabba is present, then with this union of three things the descent of the embryo occurs. Then for nine or ten months the mother shelters the embryo in her womb with great anxiety, as a heavy burden.
Milinda Pannha Bk iii, Chapter 5 para.5 - The king said: 'Where there is no transmigration, Nâgasena, can there be rebirth?'
'Yes, there can.'
'But how can that be? Give me an illustration.'
'Suppose a man, O king, were to light a lamp from another lamp, can it be said that the one transmigrates from, or to, the other?'
'Certainly not.'
'Just so, great king, is rebirth without transmigration.'
'Give me a further illustration.'
'Do you recollect, great king, having learnt, when you were a boy, some verse or other from your teacher?'
'Yes, I recollect that.'
'Well then, did that verse transmigrate from your teacher?'
'Certainly not.'
'Just so, great king, is rebirth without transmigration.'
'Very good, Nâgasena!'
In MN38, one would assume the gandhabba is the carrier of the seeds of pass kammic actions into the next birth. Although the Milinda Pannha does provide some idea on the process of rebirth, it gives no hint as to how these pass kammic seeds are stored and carried over to the next existence. It is only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka that the term Bhavanga-sota, the so-called 'subconscious life-stream' or undercurrent of life is used to explain how kammic seeds are stored and how this subconscious life-stream takes rebirth. This term is not found in the Suttas.
About Anatta
The Buddha’s doctrine of Anatta or Not-self states that the ‘self’ is impermanent, painful and subject to change, and in SN22.59 - Anatta-lakkhana Sutta is regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself’. However, the Blessed One did not teach that there is No-Self as such.
SN22.89 - Khemaka Sutta: About Khemaka - "Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.
"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates (form, feeling, perception, fabrications and consciousness) a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."
A Safe Bet
MN 60 - Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet: on the question of Existence & non-existence in para. B3, It is stated as follows, "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the wise here-&-now; and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.
We can conclude from the discourse in MN60 that it is a safe bet for one to believe that there is the existence of physical rebirths even if we are not able to find solid evidences on the subject. At least, we will not fall into the trap of becoming a nihilist or materialist which would be detrimental to the cultivation of our spiritual life.
If we take out the concept of Time and Space in any rebirth equations; Time in term of what is past, present and future; Space, an outward projection of time from our mind in term of sensuality, form and formless realms of existence, what we get is a stream of continuous mental becoming, birth and death that go on and on until cessation of suffering is experienced and realised. In this way, the beliefs in rebirth would not contradict the Buddha’s doctrine of Not-self as the controversy of a migrating ‘self’ would not exist in the whole equation. And if one, is at the same time living a moral life by the ten good deeds in actions of body, speech and mind, have no doubts in the Buddha’s Teaching of the efficacy of Kamma and the Four Noble Truths, than the beliefs in mental rebirth alone can also be a safe bet as well. Such is the paradox on the subject Rebirth.
He said: The concept of rebirth as can be found in the Suttas should be taken as a belief and not something that can be experienced or conclusively verified. Rebirth in this write-up is from the perspective of the Theravada tradition only. In any case, the beliefs in rebirth should give one the confidence in the truth of the working of the doctrine of kamma.
I don't know why he said this, as obviously rebirth is something that can be verified through yogic practice. Before that however it is true that it should be taken up as a belief.
He said: To some, any discourse that is not in accord with the teaching of the Third Noble Truth on the cessation of stress and suffering should not be taken too literally and is a teaching of not much importance.
Never did Buddha say karma and rebirth should not be taken literally. Also, karma and rebirth does not contradict Cessation, for it is precisely because of karma and rebirth that we should practise for cessation: i.e. if the samsaric rounds are beginningless and potentially without an end in sight, obviously, the logical choice is to make an extra effort to escape the rounds of rebirth and suffering right now.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:He said: The concept of rebirth as can be found in the Suttas should be taken as a belief and not something that can be experienced or conclusively verified. Rebirth in this write-up is from the perspective of the Theravada tradition only. In any case, the beliefs in rebirth should give one the confidence in the truth of the working of the doctrine of kamma.
I don't know why he said this, as obviously rebirth is something that can be verified through yogic practice. Before that however it is true that it should be taken up as a belief.
He said: To some, any discourse that is not in accord with the teaching of the Third Noble Truth on the cessation of stress and suffering should not be taken too literally and is a teaching of not much importance.
Never did Buddha say karma and rebirth should not be taken literally. Also, karma and rebirth does not contradict Cessation, for it is precisely because of karma and rebirth that we should practise for cessation: i.e. if the samsaric rounds are beginningless and potentially without an end in sight, obviously, the logical choice is to make an extra effort to escape the rounds of rebirth and suffering right now.
//I don't know why he said this, as obviously rebirth is something that can be verified through yogic practice. Before that however it is true that it should be taken up as a belief.//
As a Buddhist, I do believe in the teaching of rebirth, it is stated all over the Sutta Pitaka. The problem here is in the verification of it. Yes, we do hear of highly accomplished meditators and Buddha himself able to recount their numerous passed lives. Really, how many of such meditators are there that one can consider as genuine in their attainment and whose accounts can be believed to be true by followers of Buddhism? Yes, we can read from accounts in books of individuals recounting their pass lives as well. The crux here is that, it cannot be scientifically verified, otherwise, how else can the Chinese government manipulate and exploit the current issue of the two Panchen Lamas and the rebirth of the next Dalai Lama to their advantage? And until such time that one can personally verified for oneself that rebirth is true, it will always remain as that - a Belief for some if not most lay followers.
//Never did Buddha say karma and rebirth should not be taken literally. Also, karma and rebirth does not contradict Cessation, for it is precisely because of karma and rebirth that we should practise for cessation: i.e. if the samsaric rounds are beginningless and potentially without an end in sight, obviously, the logical choice is to make an extra effort to escape the rounds of rebirth and suffering right now.//
To some, it is precisely because of karma and rebirth that we should practice for the cessation of suffering in one lifetime. Contradiction, as the cultivation of the cessation of suffering entails wholesome acts while acts that give rise to kamma, good or bad leads only to rebirth which is not something we should be looking forward to. If we get into another cycle of birth and death, the purposes of the Buddha’s teaching of the Third Noble Truth would be defeated. For when we are reborn again, we would not know who and what we were previously and have to start from scratch all over again, that is, if we are lucky to be reborn as a Buddhist again.
It;s true that there is no rebirth in buddhism, purely buddhaness. The recycle of rebirth was stated from the ascetic practitioners in India, who had personally seen its from their own deep meditation, but not knowing the rationale behind it. However, they presumed that the cessation of suffering mind has reached its desired state. In fact, these ascetitioners have only reached a state of suppressing its alaya mind's activities. This presumed state of nirvana has a lifespan of 80000 large kalpa (A large kalpa is the long period of formation, staying, destruction, and void of a world. It is divided into eighty small kalpas, each lasting 16,800,000 years). It's still regarded as the highest heaven beings level.
In light of their desire for nirvana and failure to attain because lack of guru, it triggered the vow of Buddha to appear as prince Siddharta, and then following their path of ascetiveness practice. But it did not satisfy prince Siddharta's desire state of cessation. Condition strucked when he was under this bodhi tree that developed its attainment. From there, he returned to rescue the ascetics from the true of recyclement and its cessation.
So, it is right to state soulless, as for soul is recyclement. Is there a soul exist, if human has no soul is liken to dead man lying in the coffin. If there is no soul, why his eyes can see while a dead body eyes can't see - same eyes ball, yet one can see and one can't see :D It is the soul that has him alive as a form of human, animals etc...
Originally posted by Whimsy:It;s true that there is no rebirth in buddhism, purely buddhaness. The recycle of rebirth was stated from the ascetic practitioners in India, who had personally seen its from their own deep meditation, but not knowing the rationale behind it. However, they presumed that the cessation of suffering mind has reached its desired state. In fact, these ascetitioners have only reached a state of suppressing its alaya mind's activities. This presumed state of nirvana has a lifespan of 80000 large kalpa (A large kalpa is the long period of formation, staying, destruction, and void of a world. It is divided into eighty small kalpas, each lasting 16,800,000 years). It's still regarded as the highest heaven beings level.
In light of their desire for nirvana and failure to attain because lack of guru, it triggered the vow of Buddha to appear as prince Siddharta, and then following their path of ascetiveness practice. But it did not satisfy prince Siddharta's desire state of cessation. Condition strucked when he was under this bodhi tree that developed its attainment. From there, he returned to rescue the ascetics from the true of recyclement and its cessation.
So, it is right to state soulless, as for soul is recyclement. Is there a soul exist, if human has no soul is liken to dead man lying in the coffin. If there is no soul, why his eyes can see while a dead body eyes can't see - same eyes ball, yet one can see and one can't see :D It is the soul that has him alive as a form of human, animals etc...
//So, it is right to state soulless, as for soul is recyclement. Is there a soul exist, if human has no soul is liken to dead man lying in the coffin. If there is no soul, why his eyes can see while a dead body eyes can't see - same eyes ball, yet one can see and one can't see :D It is the soul that has him alive as a form of human, animals etc...//
The word ‘Soul’ should not be used in Buddhism as it implies the existence of an eternal permanent self. No such entity existed in Buddhism.
In fact, physical form and its senses of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind are the product of our past kammic actions, and together with the support of the 'subconscious life-stream’ give rise to our current existence. It is all dependent originated and is always in constant flux. There is no permanent existing entity as such.
It is through the contact with their respective object that the various consciousness of hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and mental knowing come to arise which provide the basis for further mental becoming due to craving and clinging. Without such contacts, consciousness would not arise. It is all dependent originated.
A dead body cannot see not because there is no ‘soul’ present in the body, it is just the seeing nature is no longer there. The bhavanga-sota as the support base for the various consciousness of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, has ‘left’ the physical body on the occurrence of death due to illness or simply old age. This is a conventional significant event in a human existence, but is in fact, just another moment in the whole process of becoming, birth and death.
Verification of past lives are by no means available to all arahants - only those with special siddhis.
Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"
"No, friend."
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html
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http://hi.baidu.com/%D6%DC%D2%E5%B2%A9/blog/item/347a4fe970af1727b90e2d55.html
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