If one stays on with seeing Conventional Truth, one would remain in Samsara.
If one stays on with seeing both Conventional Truth & Ultimate Truth, one has the choice of remaining in Samsara or Nibbana.
If one stays on with seeing Ultimate Truth, one would remain in Nibbana.
Anything that inherently exists would not involve change.
Created objects cannot inherently exist since that would involve change.
The emptiness of inherent existence of the mind is called the Buddha nature.
The potential movement of the mind from non-enlightenment towards a state of enlightenment would not be possible if the mind itself existed inherently.
In other words, emptiness is what makes the transformation towards Buddhahood possible.
Takso, there's a bit more I'd like to discuss. Will post in a day or two.
Takso, some of the stuff you said is theoretically sound, however I do not agree with making emptiness an inherent existence.
Emptiness is the unchanging nature of all phenomena, that is true. However it is simply the 'lacking of findability, metaphysical essence, graspability, locatability' that is being spoken of. In other words, the nature of all things are that they are nature-less, they are empty of inherent existence or attributes.
Emptiness is empty of inherent existence.. there is no inherent existence of emptiness. There is no findability of an "unfindability". Emptiness is just this unfindability of an inherent existence anywhere: of a self (subjective experiencer), or an object (any experienced object).
Don't make emptiness into another view - emptiness is merely a non-asserting negation.
As Namdrol says here:
Dependent origination is not a view. It is the pacification of
views. Emptiness is not a view, it is the pacification of views. This is
stated countless times in Madhyamaka texts.
Where there is no view, there is no proliferation. Where there is no proliferation, there is no view.
view = proliferation.
N
Lastly, I would suggest meditating on the luminous nature of mind first (luminous clarity, luminous presence, pure awareness), and then seeing the inseparability of luminosity and emptiness. Otherwise the understanding of emptiness remains conceptual. Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Zen, and so on stresses a lot about this. Even Theravada too, but in another more gradual way.
Originally posted by Takso:Law of Dependent Origination (Profound Version)
So far, all the available texts or sutras on the Buddha’s teachings have pointed out ignorance as the first link or cause in the wheel of life.
However, if one was to observe this aspect of ignorance intently, it simply could not arise out of nowhere or out of thin air. Definitely, it has to arise out of memorised events that have taken place beforehand.
In psychology, memory is defined as an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences. So, when aggregate activities began, some sort of information would be produced, stored and recalled in the integrated elements.
In a layman term, this process is called creation or pro-creation within beings or things. If memory aggregate is absent, the process of replication could not arise in all beings or things at all.
Let us illustrate in the learning of speeches among young children. If a child has no memory ability, then whatever lessons that were taught on would instantly be forgotten or erased and the progression to the next advance level would be deemed impossible.
Similarly, it was the Buddha’s recommendation for one to always see and live in the present; neither in the past nor in the future.
When one lives well in the present, one would lead to the cessation of memories of the past and this would subsequently lead to the cessation of ignorance in the future.
The principle in effect: -
The seeing of Ultimate Truth leads to the cessation of balance phenomenon;
The cessation of balance phenomenon leads to the cessation of aggregate activity;
The cessation of aggregate activity leads to cessation of information;
The cessation of information leads to cessation of memory;
The cessation of memory leads to the cessation of ignorance;
The cessation of ignorance leads to the cessation of volitional impulse;
The cessation of volitional impulse leads to the cessation of consciousness;
The cessation of consciousness leads to the cessation of body and mind;
The cessation of body and mind lead to the cessation of six sense bases;The cessation of six sense bases lead to the cessation of contact;
The cessation of contact leads to the cessation of feeling;
The cessation of feeling leads to the cessation of craving;
The cessation of craving leads to the cessation of clinging;
The cessation of clinging leads to the cessation of becoming;
The cessation of becoming leads to the cessation of birth;
The cessation of birth leads to the cessation of aging;
The cessation of aging leads to the cessation of death;
The cessation of death leads to the cessation of segregate activity;
The cessation of segregate activity leads to the cessation of imbalance phenomenon;
The cessation of imbalance phenomenon leads to the cessation of conditional phenomenon;
The cessation of conditional phenomenon leads to the cessation of time;
The cessation of time leads to unconditional freedom of basic elements - energy, matter and space.
Ultimately, pure energy, matter, and space elements would sustain in permanency with absence of time – this is the ambience of Nibbana.
No!
This is false. The Buddha never taught that cessation of memory leads to cessation of ignorance. Rather, he taught that knowledge and vision (realization of emptiness) leads to the end of ignorance. So what you provided is a falsely fabricated version of dependent origination that is simply false.
First of all, we CANNOT cease memory (apart from being merely a temporary shamatha state that does not liberate) - memory will always be a necessary and important function in our everyday lives. The Buddha himself remembered 91 aeons of his past lives. Also, Buddha never taught anything like 'living in the present moment means no more ignorance'.
You can live in the present moment and still be as ignorant as ever (the sense of self and clinging is imprinted and latent, and cannot be removed merely by remaining in a non-conceptual state). Also, you can engage in recalling events of the past, and still be as wise (i.e. your wisdom of emptiness is never diminished by the activity of recalling). What is required is realization into anatta and emptiness. There is thinking, no thinker. Thoughts are empty but vividly manifest. Recalling, engaging in thoughts is not an affliction (Buddhas and awakened beings continue to do that) - it is the view of selfness that is the cause of afflictions.
I think this is a very poor understanding of dharma by the author.
I don't have time but hope simpo_ can comment when he sees fit. (I will only be back in Singapore a week later) I know some of our moderators are often busy, but for the sake of right dharma being propagated and remain in the world, sometimes we all (not just monks and nuns) have the responsibility to do our part and engage in sharing our insights and experience. It seems that those who truly know are getting rare in this degenerate age.
Originally posted by Takso:First of all, Enlightenment is not a far-fetched thing; achievable only by the privileged ones or the chosen ones or the qualified ones sitting in ivory towers.
Instead, it is such a mundane realisation, just like in the passing of days and nights. Yes, when we talked about Enlightenment, we talked about Realisation, that’s it. The rest of argument is trivial and varies according to the beholders.
It is not mundane but supramundane -
As I would say, and as the Buddha have said: "This doctrine is profound, hard to see, difficult to understand, calm, sublime, not within the sphere of logic, subtle,to be understood by the wise". -- MAJJHIMA NIKÄ€YA
Only those awakened - not mundane ordinary worldlings - can have direct experiential insight and knowledge of the dharma.
Every second; every minute, every hour; every day & night - we observe things, let things pass by; learn something; let go something & finally realise something. Somehow, we have actually learned, graduated & liberated out of something without much realising. In other words, every one of us has actually tasted “little” Enlightenment in one way or another and this has already become good and sweet motivation for us to elevate up and move forward until we are ready to fully liberate ourselves from this Samsara realm.
Enlightenment isn't just 'learning more things' since 'learning more things' can mean 'learning more mundane things.
Enlightenment is the realization of the nature of reality, the inseperability of luminosity and emptiness, the nature of phenomenon, the realization of anatta and emptiness that can liberate us from all clinging, proliferations, and views.
Also, the realization of anatta, emptiness, is permanent and once seen cannot be unseen. It is not something you learn "bit by bit". Learning bit by bit is conceptual knowledge, not direct experiential realization of anatta or emptiness.
Stage 4 Ultimate Realisation
· All dependent arising are completely blown off or extinguished.
· No string attached; nothing is left remaining.
· Infinite, unchanging, permanent and unconditional.
· Exists beyond all phenomena.
There is no emptiness that exists beyond all phenomena.
First of all, 'existence' is a false concept - Nirvana is empty, samsara is empty, emptiness is empty. The emptiness of inherent existence is precisely what emptiness means.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't have time but hope simpo_ can comment when he sees fit. (I will only be back in Singapore a week later)
Hi All,
Will write as a sharing from my understanding only.
No-self and emptiness are profound realisations. They have to be directly experienced.
With each realisation, the understanding of our self and its relationship to the phenomenal world changes.The changes (in understanding) are very dramatic, especially for the insight of emptiness. There are not something that you can reason or think your way into realisation.
These realisations are often accompanied by direct expereinces of perceptual clarity, vividness, penetrating transparency and luminousity. However, it is alway stressed that these qualities must not be attached too.
Also, will like to stress that initial realisations are just 'entry points' to further refinement and development. More often than not, they do not mean that we are fully enlightened.
To see if we are fully enlightened, we must be honest with ourselves. Do we still have frustrations under life threatening or difficult circumstances? If we are, then we are not fully enlightened. I, for one, cannot say than i am fully enlightened. But, certainly can understand and experience how the realisations (of no-self and emptiness) and the sustaining of them leads to resolution.
Originally posted by Takso:Law of Dependent Origination (Profound Version)
So far, all the available texts or sutras on the Buddha’s teachings have pointed out ignorance as the first link or cause in the wheel of life.
However, if one was to observe this aspect of ignorance intently, it simply could not arise out of nowhere or out of thin air. Definitely, it has to arise out of memorised events that have taken place beforehand.In psychology, memory is defined as an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences. So, when aggregate activities began, some sort of information would be produced, stored and recalled in the integrated elements.
In a layman term, this process is called creation or pro-creation within beings or things. If memory aggregate is absent, the process of replication could not arise in all beings or things at all.
Let us illustrate in the learning of speeches among young children. If a child has no memory ability, then whatever lessons that were taught on would instantly be forgotten or erased and the progression to the next advance level would be deemed impossible.
Similarly, it was the Buddha’s recommendation for one to always see and live in the present; neither in the past nor in the future.
When one lives well in the present, one would lead to the cessation of memories of the past and this would subsequently lead to the cessation of ignorance in the future.
The principle in effect: -
The seeing of Ultimate Truth leads to the cessation of balance phenomenon;
The cessation of balance phenomenon leads to the cessation of aggregate activity;
The cessation of aggregate activity leads to cessation of information;
The cessation of information leads to cessation of memory;
The cessation of memory leads to the cessation of ignorance;
The cessation of ignorance leads to the cessation of volitional impulse;
The cessation of volitional impulse leads to the cessation of consciousness;
The cessation of consciousness leads to the cessation of body and mind;
The cessation of body and mind lead to the cessation of six sense bases;The cessation of six sense bases lead to the cessation of contact;
The cessation of contact leads to the cessation of feeling;
The cessation of feeling leads to the cessation of craving;
The cessation of craving leads to the cessation of clinging;
The cessation of clinging leads to the cessation of becoming;
The cessation of becoming leads to the cessation of birth;
The cessation of birth leads to the cessation of aging;
The cessation of aging leads to the cessation of death;
The cessation of death leads to the cessation of segregate activity;
The cessation of segregate activity leads to the cessation of imbalance phenomenon;
The cessation of imbalance phenomenon leads to the cessation of conditional phenomenon;
The cessation of conditional phenomenon leads to the cessation of time;
The cessation of time leads to unconditional freedom of basic elements - energy, matter and space.
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I don't remember there are extra things in the 12 yin yuan leh...
e.g. The cessation of aggregate activity leads to cessation of information;
The cessation of information leads to cessation of memory;
The cessation of memory leads to the cessation of ignorance; etc etc
But why do u agree that cessation of memory leads to ignorance...?
Some people passed away but reborn with their past lives habit... we called ä¹ æ°” lol or habits. These habits can be bad... like lying. It is the best example of ignorance.
Furthermore, the text i highlighted blue... i don't quite agree... how do you explain dukkha and where it come from? I felt that, it just comes from our unenlightened mind, clinging onto something that subjected to change. If it changes for the bad... we suffer (dukka comes lol) - not understanding emptiness
Dear All,
The only way to cease all the arguments, twisting of words or understanding is to meditate, meditate, and meditate.
As simpo has mentioned, to see if we are enlightened, we must be honest with ourselves. I fully agreed on this statement.
The fact is that no concepts, words or language could describe or interpret precisely one's experiences.
When one realise fully on the present moment, the memory aggregate would eventually vanish; for memory of the past would lead to new becoming process in the future, and thus ignorance continues eventually across time and plane of existence.
Remember, there is no mind, no memory, no becoming, no clinging, no desire, no ignorance, no happiness, no sadness, no changing in the eternal bliss of Nibbana. If one desire to attain full enlightenment - one has to see it, know it, let go and liberate. Dukkha would diminish along the way - the more of realisation leads to the more of cessation => ultimate realisation = ultimate cessation.
A word of advice to all is that do not be receptive, do not be defensive, just stays cool and analyse thoroughly on any mentioned words, texts, sutras, etc. Be wise to apply Middle Path approach as recommended by the Buddha.
Apply your wisdom and you would find your answers to it. The door is open and you need to walk in the path by yourself; someone could only shine the light or show the way in.
Therefore, one should apply wisdom in all thoughts or actions and never be too fascinated or obsessed with what was written or mentioned in the so-called texts, doctrines, sutras, etc.
I wish you all a fruitful journey to Enlightenment.
The world is not a closed one. Those who see, read, hear and evaluate for themselves can find the truth they seek.
The role of religion in this era is not as a blockade but to help explain and educate in a mature manner.
Be bound-less, be stereotype-less, be label-less. Mould a right attitude and it would open up a new horizon of things.
The only way to cease all the arguments, twisting of words or understanding is to meditate, meditate, and meditate.
I have, and it is very clear from experiential insight that you are twisting the words of Buddha and misrepresenting the Dharma. Please reflect and study more and don't misrepresent the Dharma.
Remember, there is no mind, no memory, no becoming, no clinging, no desire, no ignorance, no happiness, no sadness, no changing in the eternal bliss of Nibbana.
There is sense perceptions, there is mind, there is memory in the Nirvana with remainder (Nirvana experienced by the arahant before bodily breakup). There is no sense perceptions nor mind after the bodily breakup of the Arahant after his final passing, known as Nirvana without remainder.
The Nirvana with remainder is simply cessation of the three poisons: craving, aversion and ignorance. Past karmas will surface to give rise to consciousness, mind, sense experiences, and obviously memory.
There is no liberation through cessation of memory. Or rather, there is no cessation of ignorance through cessation of memory. Cessation of ignorance is through knowledge and vision of things as they are (anatta and emptiness), not 'ceasing memory' or 'staying with the present'. Liberation is solely through the arising of insight/wisdom that sees the true nature of phenomena, thus ending ignorance, leading to dispassion and relinquishing of afflictions, clinging, craving, and suffering. Having ended afflictions, there is no more causes for a future samsaric birth.
More importantly, liberation is not through 'living in the present moment'. You can live in the present moment and still no insights occur, and still you remain as ignorant as ever, and still you are as far from liberation as ever. Staying with the 'present' is simply a shamatha practice.
Have wisdom will do; do not be afraid of own shadow :)
Enlightenment is bodhicitta, the inherent buddhaness of all beings; Awakening is the realization of inherent enlightenment; Nirvana is the actualization of Enlightenment through the method of awakening :D
Originally posted by simpo_:Hi All,
Will write as a sharing from my understanding only.
No-self and emptiness are profound realisations. They have to be directly experienced.
With each realisation, the understanding of our self and its relationship to the phenomenal world changes.The changes (in understanding) are very dramatic, especially for the insight of emptiness. There are not something that you can reason or think your way into realisation.
These realisations are often accompanied by direct expereinces of perceptual clarity, vividness, penetrating transparency and luminousity. However, it is alway stressed that these qualities must not be attached too.
Also, will like to stress that initial realisations are just 'entry points' to further refinement and development. More often than not, they do not mean that we are fully enlightened.
To see if we are fully enlightened, we must be honest with ourselves. Do we still have frustrations under life threatening or difficult circumstances? If we are, then we are not fully enlightened. I, for one, cannot say than i am fully enlightened. But, certainly can understand and experience how the realisations (of no-self and emptiness) and the sustaining of them leads to resolution.
Yes what you said is very true. That is why there is a gradation from 1st bhumi to 10 bhumi, sotapanna to arahantship. The realization of anatta/emptiness is the same between sotapanna and arhant, 1st bhumi bodhisattva and Buddha, while the afflictions removed and qualities attained differ according to the stages.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes what you said is very true. That is why there is a gradation from 1st bhumi to 10 bhumi, sotapanna to arahantship. The realization of anatta/emptiness is the same between sotapanna and arhant, 1st bhumi bodhisattva and Buddha, while the afflictions removed and qualities attained differ according to the stages.
Hi All,
Just a sharing...
IMO, one of the difficulty along the path after the initial realisation (stream entry?) is that it is hard sustaining the realisation throughout.
My view on this is that because our affliction/defilement is constantly 'throwing' awareness into a dualistic/self-focused state depending on situations. IMO, this is due to failing to see the nature of the 'affliction/defilement'.
In another word, the defilements are dualistically regarded... before their nature can be realised and ascertained. There are, in my experience, 2 stage of dualistic conditioning...
In the 1st stage, the defilements arises without us realising that they are the conditions that causes the sense of self. In another word, awareness is not sharp enough to discover the defilements.
In the 2nd stage, we have spotted the defilements and have decided to eliminate them. Here we are determined to destroy all the defilements.
In this 2nd stage, our attempt at 'eliminating' defilement is dualistic. Defilements are observed, but are viewed dualistically as 'objects' requiring elimination. This again throw us into subject-object division. This is due to failure in understanding the nature of the defilements.
Originally posted by simpo_:Hi All,
Just a sharing...
IMO, one of the difficulty along the path after the initial realisation (stream entry?) is that it is hard sustaining the realisation throughout.
My view on this is that because our affliction/defilement is constantly 'throwing' awareness into a dualistic/self-focused state depending on situations. IMO, this is due to failing to see the nature of the 'affliction/defilement'.
In another word, the defilements are dualistically regarded... before their nature can be realised and ascertained. There are, in my experience, 2 stage of dualistic conditioning...
In the 1st stage, the defilements arises without us realising that they are the conditions that causes the sense of self. In another word, awareness is not sharp enough to discover the defilements.
In the 2nd stage, we have spotted the defilements and have decided to eliminate them. Here we are determined to destroy all the defilements.
In this 2nd stage, our attempt at 'eliminating' defilement is dualistic. Defilements are observed, but are viewed dualistically as 'objects' requiring elimination. This again throw us into subject-object division. This is due to failure in understanding the nature of the defilements.
Care to discuss the cultivation of the paramis? Would that help with the elimination of defilements? (Just wondering...)
Originally posted by simpo_:Hi All,
Just a sharing...
IMO, one of the difficulty along the path after the initial realisation (stream entry?) is that it is hard sustaining the realisation throughout.
My view on this is that because our affliction/defilement is constantly 'throwing' awareness into a dualistic/self-focused state depending on situations. IMO, this is due to failing to see the nature of the 'affliction/defilement'.
In another word, the defilements are dualistically regarded... before their nature can be realised and ascertained. There are, in my experience, 2 stage of dualistic conditioning...
In the 1st stage, the defilements arises without us realising that they are the conditions that causes the sense of self. In another word, awareness is not sharp enough to discover the defilements.
In the 2nd stage, we have spotted the defilements and have decided to eliminate them. Here we are determined to destroy all the defilements.
In this 2nd stage, our attempt at 'eliminating' defilement is dualistic. Defilements are observed, but are viewed dualistically as 'objects' requiring elimination. This again throw us into subject-object division. This is due to failure in understanding the nature of the defilements.
This is very well said... Can you elaborate on the nature of defilements and what do you see as the resolution of these defilements?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:This is very well said... Can you elaborate on the nature of defilements and what do you see as the resolution of these defilements?
Hi All,
I feel that these portion should be left 'undescribed' because of the unbenefiting possiblity of the description being used as a conceptual overlay.
The defilements are of the nature no different from that of everything else.
Originally posted by realization:Care to discuss the cultivation of the paramis? Would that help with the elimination of defilements? (Just wondering...)
IMO, keep the understanding (of them) lightly first, let the progress on the path itself reveal their specific significance.
Just sharing of discussion so that together, we are very lively yay! - Enlightenment is one's dharma body, nirvana is one's reward body while awakening is need to walk walk, need to sleep sleep, eat when hungry....:D
To Longchen:
Thanks.
Imo the key is in paying clear attention
(mindfulness) and meditative investigation on the defilements until their nature
becomes clear: impermanent, unsatisfactory and nonself is the way to insight and
as a result natural dropping occurs. It cannot be willed but it can occur as a
natural dropping through seeing with naked awareness, but not by reacting to it,
nor is it by temporarily suppressing the arising of thoughts (both which are
dualistic action presuming that there is a doer that can control the objects of
arising, and therefore cannot lead to a true resolution of defilements).
However when insight arise into the nature of defilements, we naturally
stop being drawn in by the allurement of the defilements. We clearly see
defilements as suffering/unsatisfactory, as as being empty. Sentient beings are
entranced by craving for temporary pleasures, not knowing that the very craving
and clinging leads to suffering: in the same way that scratching a sore wound
may feel very "right" or pleasurable but is actually making things much worse
and increasing the suffering every time you scratch. It is the blindness of
sentient beings to the nature of that craving that sustains the samsaric cycle
of suffering.
So liberation from defilements can only happen when we
realize the nature of defilements and craving we harbour are like hot charcoal
that burns, naturally we drop - it is not by reasoning or willing ourselves to
drop. This deep seeing thus naturally leads to disenchantment, dispassion and
liberation.
This is why arahants can no longer give rise to craving: not
because he has strong will, but because his combination of wisdom and samadhi is
so complete that he can no longer be delusioned about the nature of craving and
suffering. It is like you can no longer pick up an object once you recognise it
to be hot charcoal.
Practicing this way also leads to an experiential
understanding of the four noble truths: suffering, cause of suffering (craving),
end of suffering, way to end suffering.
Here is something I find useful
and effective regarding dealing with addictions:
"In addition to various
recovery programs, the most effective way of undoing addiction that I know of is
by giving non-judgmental, open attention to what is happening right now in this
moment without seeking a result or trying to change it in any way – simply
seeing it clearly. Let's take alcoholic drinking as an example. If you're not
yet ready or able to completely stop drinking, then pay attention to the whole
process of drinking as it happens. Notice that first impulse for a drink – see
what triggers it, be aware of how it happens, notice what it feels like in the
body. What is this urge itself actually like? What thoughts are showing up, what
mental images, what storylines, what sensations? Is it possible to pause for a
moment and fully experience the bodily sensations that go with this urge for a
drink, the sense of urgency, the excitement, whatever it is? And then the whole
process of "deciding" whether to give in to this urge or whether to resist – how
does that so-called decision-making process actually unfold, what are your
thoughts telling you? And then buying the bottle, opening it up, pouring the
first drink – what does each moment in this process feel like in the body? And
then the first sip, what is that like? And how do you feel after one drink –
what is pleasurable about it, what isn't? What moves you to have a second drink?
What is this urge – do you really want another drink, or is there a fear of what
you might feel if you don't keep drinking? How do you feel after that second
drink – do you actually like how you feel? What do you like about it and what
don't you like? What do you feel like the next morning? What thoughts and
stories are arising? Simply paying attention to this whole unfolding process and
observing it every step of the way. You'll learn a lot. There are no "right" or
"wrong" answers to these questions, and the answers may be different at
different moments. It's all about paying attention, being aware of your
thoughts, noticing the storylines, feeling the sensations in the body,
discovering what is actually going on every step of the way. When you realize
that you are pinching yourself, and when you see how it happens – what the
allurement is, how it seduces you, how you do it, how ultimately unsatisfying it
is, how it hurts – naturally, you stop.
The more the light of awareness
shines on these habitual mechanisms, and the more clarity there is about how
they work, the more choice and the more possibility there is. The urge for a
drink may still arise, but it may be possible not to go with it. And when it
isn't possible, then you drink. And you notice what that's like. Maybe over time
drinking happens less and less, and maybe alcoholic drinking falls away
completely at some point. Maybe at some point a clear decision to stop emerges,
or a decision to go into some recovery program, or whatever it might be. It is
not actually "your" decision, it is the action of Life Itself."
- Joan
Tollifson, http://www.joantollifson.com/writing9.html
Thus, monks, a Tathàgata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive about a seer. [seeing without a seer]
He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of an unheard; he does not conceive of a thing-worth-hearing'; he does not conceive about a hearer. [hearing without a hearer]