Spontaneous Generated Human Beings?
In the Maha-sihanada Sutta (MN12), it is stated that:
"There are gods and denizens of hell and certain human beings and some beings in the lower worlds that come into being through spontaneous generation".
We all know that human beings are “womb-born generated”. Anyone knows who are these “certain human beings” that are “spontaneous generated” as stated in this Sutta?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The Lotus Born
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmasambhava
According to tradition, Padmasambhava was incarnated as an eight-year-old child appearing in a lotus blossom floating in Lake Dhanakosha, in the kingdom of O��iy�na, traditionally identified with the Swat Valley of South Asia in present-day Pakistan.
I see, so likely these are the 'certain human beings' this Sutta is referring to. Thanks for info.
Does anyone know of any other interpretation?
�化生】　
　 １．四生之一，�變化而生，如諸天，地�，�劫�的人類都是化生的。
　
　 ２．指人æ»å¾Œçš„ä¸é™°èº«ï¼Œå�ˆå��ä¸æœ‰ï¼Œå®ƒæ˜¯åŒ–生的。
化生是一種佛語，四生之一，是指ä¸�藉由父æ¯�ä¹‹å› ç·£ï¼Œç„¡æ‰€è¨—è€Œå¿½æœ‰ï¼Œä¾‹å¦‚è“®èŠ±ç‰æ¤�物出生者。
化生之語出自《金剛經》：「所有一切眾生之類，若�生�若胎生�若濕生�若化生，若有色�若無色�若有想�若無想�若�有想�無想，我皆令入無餘涅槃而滅度之。�人類也有化生，諸天�地�，以�劫�之人都是化生。
化生的概念有異於生物å¸çš„觀點。
in the beginning, human also used to be Spontaneous-generated. human bardo state are Spontaneous-generated.
Spontaneous-generated mean those that are born without the cause of a parent. for example those that are born from lotus or other plants.
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And where is the child now?Any one seen him?
Originally posted by sinweiy:in the beginning, human also used to be Spontaneous-generated. human bardo state are Spontaneous-generated.
Spontaneous-generated mean those that are born without the cause of a parent. for example those that are born from lotus or other plants.
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Is the info. a Mahayanist or Theravada interpretation?
'Human born from spontaneous generation' is stated in MN12 which is a Sutta of the Theravada tradition. Surprisingly, I have not been able find any answers of the meaning from followers of this tradition on the subject which could be different from those offered by the Mahayanists. Hopefully I can get one from this posting.
mostly Mahayanist, but i would rather think it's Buddhist. :)
Beginning of Life on Earth is written in Agganna Sutta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agga%C3%B1%C3%B1a_Sutta
for Bardo,
Sarah Abbott writes:
“The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “
As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).”
I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas.
no info on the plant-born though.
for search information linking Spontaneous-born with pali cannon:
1. Suffering as a result of Birth [jaati dukkha]
The Lord Buddha taught that suffering as a result of birth is 'built in' suffering for every living being conceived in the realms of the Cycle of Existence. The arising of beings in the Cycle of Existence is by four possible modes of birth:1. Hatching from an egg [a.n.daja] e.g birds, lizards and snakes;
2. Birth from the womb [jalaabuja] e.g. mammals;
3. Arising in dampness or moisture [sa.msedaja] e.g. prokaryotic organisms e.g. mosquitos and some sorts of worms;
4. Spontaneous arising in adult form [pali: opapaatika] who are as developed as a sixteen-year old complete with adornment from the moment of birth e.g. angels, gods and denizens of hell.
http://www.meditationthai.com/The_Buddha%27s%20_first%20_teaching/Truths_of_suffering1.htm
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=148
http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis06.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html
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Originally posted by sinweiy:mostly Mahayanist, but i would rather think it's Buddhist. :)
Beginning of Life on Earth is written in Agganna Sutta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agga%C3%B1%C3%B1a_Sutta
for Bardo,
Sarah Abbott writes:
“The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “
As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).”
I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas.no info on the plant-born though.
for search information linking Spontaneous-born with pali cannon:
http://www.meditationthai.com/The_Buddha%27s%20_first%20_teaching/Truths_of_suffering1.htm
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=148
http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis06.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html
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Thanks for the links.
lotus born? now this is really too much............
Originally posted by sinweiy:mostly Mahayanist, but i would rather think it's Buddhist. :)
Beginning of Life on Earth is written in Agganna Sutta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agga%C3%B1%C3%B1a_Sutta
for Bardo,
Sarah Abbott writes:
“The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “
As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).”
I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas.no info on the plant-born though.
for search information linking Spontaneous-born with pali cannon:
http://www.meditationthai.com/The_Buddha%27s%20_first%20_teaching/Truths_of_suffering1.htm
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=148
http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-10.htm
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis06.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html
/\
Except for the Agganna Sutta which speaks of the beginning of life of earth, there is still no direct mention anywhere in the links of what are the ‘certain’ human beings that are spontaneous generated’. I mean the physical kind.
Anyway, thanks for your info.
how about traveller sun...? :P
Originally posted by Rooney9:lotus born? now this is really too much............
i'm glad i'm not the only 1 who thinks so too, lolol.
sometimes, stuff can really be damn ridiculous.
Originally posted by 2009novice:how about traveller sun...? :P
who or what's that?
Originally posted by Aik TC:
Except for the Agganna Sutta which speaks of the beginning of life of earth, there is still no direct mention anywhere in the links of what are the ‘certain’ human beings that are spontaneous generated’. I mean the physical kind.
Anyway, thanks for your info.
physical kind? 'spontaneous generated’ also mean no physical form, bodiless.
just "suddenly" appear, without a parent, since they come down from Abbhasara. since they are not parent/womb-born. more or less, i think it's understandable.
kind of think of it, how Buddha was born, was also extraordinary.
Queen M�y� and King Suddhodhana did not have children for twenty years into their marriage. According to legend, One full moon night, sleeping in the palace, the queen had a vivid dream. She felt herself being carried away by four devas (spirits) to Lake Anotatta in the Himalayas. After bathing her in the lake, the devas clothed her in heavenly cloths, anointed her with perfumes, and bedecked her with divine flowers. Soon after a white elephant, holding a white lotus flower in its trunk, appeared and went round her three times, entering her womb through her right side. Finally the elephant disappeared and the queen awoke, knowing she had been delivered an important message, as the elephant is a symbol of greatness in Nepal[1]. According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha-to-be was residing as a Bodhisattva, in the Tuṣita heaven, and decided to take the shape of a white elephant to be reborn on Earth for the last time. M�y� gave birth to Siddharta c. 563 BCE. The pregnancy lasted ten lunar months. Following custom, the Queen returned to her own home for the birth. On the way, she stepped down from her palanquin to have a walk under the Sal tree (Shorea robusta), often confused with the Ashoka tree (Saraca asoca), in the beautiful flower garden of Lumbini Park, Lumbini Zone, Nepal. Maya Devi was delighted by the park and gave birth standing while holding onto a sal branch. Legend has it that Prince Siddh�rtha emerged from her right side.
--------------------------
Siddhartha Gautama was born from Queen Maya's right armpit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_birth_of_Buddha_(Lalitavistara)
http://kannon-temple-nevada.org/pdf/DHARMA_02-final.pdf
meaning of
spontaneous
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Originally posted by Rooney9:lotus born? now this is really too much............
Padmasambhava's Chinese name is called 莲花生 (born in a lotus flower). He was an Indian high monk (also known as Guru Rinponche) credited for spreading Vajrayana Buddhism into Tibet and establishing the foundation of Tibetan Buddhism.
The buddhist story had it that there was a kingdom in India called 奥金. The king was �第�� (indhi bodhi) and he often practised generosity to his subjects. After his son passed away, there were many disasters in his kingdom such as drought and famine. He once make a prayer to Buddha hoping to salvage the situation.
Avalotekiteshvara Bodhisattva (Guanyin) in Amitabha Pureland saw this situation and thus requested to Amitabha Buddha to help salvage this suffering. Thus, Amitabha Buddha shot out a red light towards a lotus flower in lake Dana 丹那湖. In addition, he also shot out a HRI word (representing "generosity") towards the diamond seat. Within the rainbow showering of the lotus flower, there sit an 8-year old boy. Thus, was reborn (through spontanous generation) an incarnate of Buddha to save the sentient beings. When this boy grew up, he was said to be able to cure many disease and have supernatural power. This was essentiallly the basic story of Padmasambhava.
i've heard of :-
Lotus birth, or umbilical nonseverance, is the practice of leaving the umbilical cord attached to both the baby and the placenta following birth, without clamping or severing, and allowing the cord the time to detach from the baby naturally. In this way the baby, cord and placenta are treated as a single unit until detachment occurs, generally two to three days after birth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_birth
Lotus birth is the practice of non-violence. It is gaining more and more momentum nowadays, as parents realize the importance of birth for the psychological development and health of children.
During my first birth, I have read about Lotus birth and wished it for my newborn daughter. We have bought a special sieve, where we put the placenta. We kept the placenta in the sieve a little higher than Gabbie, while she had her first breastfeeding. The blood from the placenta quickly went down into the baby, providing her with the most precious nutrition. Having had an unassisted home birth, we did not rush to cut the umbilical cord. We waited for it to drain itself. Little by little the red throbbing stalk connecting Gabbie and the placenta became white. Gabbie was very calm and relaxed. She is still very self-confident and attentive. (Still my first birth was not such, which I hope the second one to be. When a doctor came, she cut the umbilical cord. I am thankful that at least we had the wisdom to postpone her coming at least an hour after the complete birth. Yet it was probably not wise to transfer to hospital after such a wonderful birth at home.)Lotus birth is a choice of non-violence. Not only the umbilical cord is not cut, it just withers away usually in the third day. The child has the time to accustom to the world, without the sudden breaking from this caring warm friend, it had in the womb for nine months.
The placenta is part of the baby. The placenta begins developing at implantation from the same source as the baby - the blast cyst. The fetus relies on the placenta, not only for nutrition, but also for gas exchange, waste removal, endocrine and immune support. The correct development of the placenta is important for the development of the embryo and fetus.
When born, the baby still relies on the placenta. Leaving it attached to the baby after birth, you make a natural transition to take place. There is no rush, no sudden severance, and no confusion. The baby has the feel for the placenta, and at the same time discovers in its own time the new source of love, warmth, nutrition in the mother. The gradual attachment to the mother helps the detachment from the placenta as it dries and naturally separates. The most precious nutrition, hormones, immune support substances enter the baby body. Leaving the placenta intact, you also keep the baby body from infection which might appear in early cord cut.
All lotus born babies are more mature, quite and happy. They are much more content, and faster maturing.
I myself embrace the notion of lotus birth for my current birth. It seems the most natural practice. It was first conceived in 1974 by Clair Lotus Day. She witnessed the way a mother Chimpanzee left the placenta attached to the baby until it dropped off. Seeing this, she thought it should not be harmful for a human baby and did the same after the birth of her son.
Leaving the cord attached was a practice also cherished by the Native Americans, the Thais. It was mentioned in Buddhist traditions as well.Lotus birth is revived today as a practice of yoga parents, and many others who sense the benefit for their newborn baby. It has been practiced even in hospital settings, after Cesarean, or for premature babies.
http://www.achildbirth.com/lotus-birth.html
and..
Born with a 'veil'
Infant born with a thin membrane enveloping the fetus, denoting that the infant is psychic. (i heard some masters or spiritual people are born in this way).
@sinweiy……..
For health, hygiene and safety concerns, I do not think the hospitals here would allow a baby still attached to their umbilical cord and the placenta following birth to be kept this way for more than a few hours. The placenta will definitely need to be placed in a position higher than the baby to prevent a backflow of blood from the baby to the placenta which could cause possible death.
When I speak of the ‘physical kind’ my emphasis all along was with reference to the human kind. I certainly do not doubt the words of the Suttas as the recorded words spoken by the Buddha himself as he is certainly not one who waste his words on speculative theories and myths. That is where my inquiry came in.
How the Buddha was born as it is stated in your above posted, is just a recorded legend and not from any Suttas, unlike the creation of the world in just six days as recorded in the Bible which is expected to be believed by its followers.
anyway, believe or not, it's of secondary issue as compare to the real practice of Dharma. :)
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Originally posted by sinweiy:anyway, believe or not, it's of secondary issue as compare to the real practice of Dharma. :)
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Real practice of Dharma more important - Agreed.
Originally posted by sinweiy:
who or what's that?
Haha... actually it's nothing... I'm refering to å™æ‚Ÿç©º