Sorry guys, this will probably be a bit messy, but I'm not really sure how to put this forth clearly. Hoping someone will kindly point me in the right direction.
Had a pretty nice walk just now. Just observing all the sounds and sights and tactile sensations. So, hearing, seeing, feeling. There's no actual choice to them happening, i.e. unless I'm blind/deaf/have nerve damage, it just happens without someone pushing them along. Can't choose to switch them off, even if I close my eyes block my ears it's still happening, still hearing muffled sounds, seeing eyelids.
But I realised there's still attention being exerted. There's only that much attention I can put on so many things so naturally I don't feel/see/hear everything that's around. So when I put attention on the MRT, I hear it more clearly. When I put the attention to the foot, I feel every foot raised, planted onto the ground etc. I'm still holding the view that there's someone turning this attention, nevermind that I believe from texts that there's no such person doing this. Hmm... help, anyone?
When you chant and concentrate, the noise around you will reduce.
Originally posted by Jui:Sorry guys, this will probably be a bit messy, but I'm not really sure how to put this forth clearly. Hoping someone will kindly point me in the right direction.
Had a pretty nice walk just now. Just observing all the sounds and sights and tactile sensations. So, hearing, seeing, feeling. There's no actual choice to them happening, i.e. unless I'm blind/deaf/have nerve damage, it just happens without someone pushing them along. Can't choose to switch them off, even if I close my eyes block my ears it's still happening, still hearing muffled sounds, seeing eyelids.
But I realised there's still attention being exerted. There's only that much attention I can put on so many things so naturally I don't feel/see/hear everything that's around. So when I put attention on the MRT, I hear it more clearly. When I put the attention to the foot, I feel every foot raised, planted onto the ground etc. I'm still holding the view that there's someone turning this attention, nevermind that I believe from texts that there's no such person doing this. Hmm... help, anyone?
When you do chanting, meditation or practise dharma for quite sometime, you will slowly find that your mind blends with the surrounding nature around you, the realization that all phenomena are empty of its inherent self-existing nature (i.e. emptiness). It's a subdued untroubled mind that even the slightess filth around you is unable to afflict your own mind. If you can still feel someone turning your attention, it's perhaps your own disciminating mind 分別心 ( which continues to create a deluded conceptualization 妄想心 of your own "self" and "others" ). Realizing emptinessness is the spiritual goal, but perhaps, you might want to focus on cultivating a mind free from discrimination.
Practising bodhcitta helps one cultivate a mind free from discrimination (無分別心）, particularly when one practises the 6 perfections (paramitta) å…度, namely Generosity 布施, Precepts æŒ�戒, Virtues/Forebearance å¿�è¾±, Efforts 精進 , Meditation 禪定, Wisdom/Insight 般若
Yeah I get that occasionally, either chanting or sitting meditation or just during my walks. Sense of self drops. Wonderful feeling. Still doesn't mean anything though, just states and no realization. Right now I can't actually see for myself that this shifting of attention is devoid of a self.
Is there actually sounds out there? If you ask someone with hearing problem, they will tell you there is no sound. This just got to show that sounds happen only when our senses （å…æ ¹ï¼‰ get in touch with the outside world (å…å°˜). Lack of either one, sounds will not happen. The sounds will then enter our ears and transmit it to our brain （å…识）。 I can understand but I can't really explain, I think the moderators or other forumers can explain better. In Chinese å…æ ¹,å…å°˜,å…识 = å��å…«ç•Œ. There is no actual self, it is just the combination of å…æ ¹,å…å°˜,å…识.
Although it is the same sound, individual perceive it differently. Some may find it nice, not nice, loud , soft etc.
Realisation: The Silent Yet Noisy Falling Tree?
e Silent Yet Noisy Falling Tree?
The practice of all the bodhisattvas is never to entertain concepts, which revolve around dualistic notions of perceiver and perceived, in the knowledge that all these appearances are but the mind itself, whilst mind's own nature is forever beyond the limitations of ideas.
- (#22 of) 'The 37 Bodhisattva Practices' (Ngulchu Thogme Zangpo)
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it, is there a sound?' I once asked a friend this classic philosophical and koan-like question through a text message. A few moments later, he replied, 'I heard it while thinking about it.' I responded, 'But I already said there was no one there to hear it. Why did you put yourself there?' Perhaps this is a trick question that cannot be answered properly with the thinking mind, not unlike trying to 'not think of a pink elephant'! When my friend read the question, he 'heard' the 'sound', as his mind moved accordingly to make sense of it by thinking. This is not unlike the case of Zen Master Huineng, who resolved an argument between two monks on whether it was a flag or the wind that was moving – by saying that it was their minds that moved. Movement is so only when perceived by the mind, just as a sound is so only when registered by the mind through hearing. The mind is the prime 'mover' of experience, with which we perceive and process sensory inputs
Does this mean that there was no sound of the falling tree, that the flag and wind did not move at all? Surprisingly, the answer is a definite 'yes'! A sound is so only when air vibrations reach one's ears. Since there was no one to receive the vibrations, they were not translated to be sound by anyone. Likewise, movement in space and time is defined as so only when there is perception of displacement. And to do so, one's perception has to be displaced from stillness – to move. If my friend's mind did not move, he would not hear a mind-made sound. Similarly, sight is sighted only when light falls upon eyes, smell is smelt only when smelling, taste is tasted only when tasting, touch is a sensation only when touching, thought is thought only when thinking. The world perceived through the senses exists only when sensed. As our sense faculties differ from one to another, though this world is one, it is experienced differently (but sometimes similarly), subjectively and dependent on our karma and perception.
This does not mean that the world does not exist if there is no one to perceive it. An objective world exists beyond our limited senses corrupted by misperception. This means it is quite pointless to argue over relative experiences such as whether a sight is beautiful or ugly, or whether a sound is loud or soft, as these would depend on our varying sensitivities and preferences (attachment and aversion). Also, some beings have less senses, and some with more refined senses. In insight meditation, the thinking mind is silenced, so as to realise the nature of reality by direct non-judgemental mindfulness of whatever transpires. Naked reality is that seen without movements of the mind, which would blur the perception of things as they really are. Direct and pure experience through the senses is enabled. The more silent you are, the more accurately defined will reality be known and seen, without imposition or supposition
Our mind and the world are connected as one like the ends of a single line, dual as the perceiver and the perceive but really one, without real division of 'self' from the world. The perceiver perceived as a separate 'self' impairs perception, and is an illusion. It blocks and taints clear perceiving of reality. Meditation helps to dissolve this illusion, by perceiving the workings of perceiving itself, by realising that there is only perceiving without any perceiver. When we truly realise this, we attain the 'beginner's mind' as taught in Zen, that is able to respond instantly, appropriately and selflessly to all experiences without needless mental proliferations based on the illusion of 'self'. Free from this delusion, we will be able to be fully absorbed, engaged in whatever we are experiencing and doing. This is authentic enlightened living!
If this world perceived with delusion seems 'real',
a Pure Land without delusion is even more real.
Originally posted by Jui:Sorry guys, this will probably be a bit messy, but I'm not really sure how to put this forth clearly. Hoping someone will kindly point me in the right direction.
Had a pretty nice walk just now. Just observing all the sounds and sights and tactile sensations. So, hearing, seeing, feeling. There's no actual choice to them happening, i.e. unless I'm blind/deaf/have nerve damage, it just happens without someone pushing them along. Can't choose to switch them off, even if I close my eyes block my ears it's still happening, still hearing muffled sounds, seeing eyelids.
But I realised there's still attention being exerted. There's only that much attention I can put on so many things so naturally I don't feel/see/hear everything that's around. So when I put attention on the MRT, I hear it more clearly. When I put the attention to the foot, I feel every foot raised, planted onto the ground etc. I'm still holding the view that there's someone turning this attention, nevermind that I believe from texts that there's no such person doing this. Hmm... help, anyone?
Attention is simply a mental factor.
If attention is you or yours, you will be able to know what your next moment of attention is.
You don't.
It just happens - for example, if in the next moment someone suddenly breaks his cup, your attention will immediately 'go there'. You can't predict exactly where your attention would land in the next moment. It is not you, yours, or under your control, as much as it appears to be. It is simply what arises according to conditions - including many various factors like a previous moment of thought, impressions, latent imprints, or external factors.
Just investigate attention like any other mental or physical object in accordance with Anattalakkhana Sutta: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Anattalakkhana/anattalakkhana.html
In short, as Daniel M. Ingram says, " just look at what is happening directly, as that is far superior. See it sensation by sensation, causal, direct, where they are, happening on their own: this is the way of insight."
Originally posted by Jui:Yeah I get that occasionally, either chanting or sitting meditation or just during my walks. Sense of self drops. Wonderful feeling. Still doesn't mean anything though, just states and no realization. Right now I can't actually see for myself that this shifting of attention is devoid of a self.
What is it like when sense of self drops?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Attention is simply a mental factor.
If attention is you or yours, you will be able to know what your next moment of attention is.
You don't.
It just happens - for example, if in the next moment someone suddenly breaks his cup, your attention will immediately 'go there'. You can't predict exactly where your attention would land in the next moment. It is not you, yours, or under your control, as much as it appears to be. It is simply what arises according to conditions - including many various factors like a previous moment of thought, impressions, latent imprints, or external factors.
Just investigate attention like any other mental or physical object in accordance with Anattalakkhana Sutta: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Anattalakkhana/anattalakkhana.html
In short, as Daniel M. Ingram says, " just look at what is happening directly, as that is far superior. See it sensation by sensation, causal, direct, where they are, happening on their own: this is the way of insight."
I wonder if Jui is also referring to volition. Eg., the volition to pay more attention to an aching foot vs the bird chirping.
Also, what decides which sensation is more salient at any one point in time?
The same applies for volition. You don't know your next moment of volition, and the volition does not arise without requisite conditions like a previous moment of thought, imprints, external factors, etc.
Dawnfirstlight: Thanks for the explanation and article. So it is correct to say that sensations only are there because of a mind to interpret them, right? I had originally wanted to say that you need sense organs to perceive senses, but then after pondering about it, oftentimes the mind just starts working without need for any input, hence our senses work in our dreams, and people suffering from psychosis hear voices in their heads. Senses... are just something our minds create?
AEN: Thanks for the explanation and link as well. Now that you mentioned it, you're right, I've only ever managed to observe "attention has shifted to <x object>" and never "attention will shift to <x object>" .
As for the self dropping, there's this immense feeling of being in harmony with your surroundings, everything being so vivid and alive, like "All's well with the world". It's like one moment I've been watching a show on standard def TV and in a short while switched to watching the same show on a HD TV. Noise in the head stops and thoughts end easily without derailing into something about "me". Also feel very connected to every person around, as though they are friends. Very willing to talk to and completely listen to people even if it's about very mundane topics (I don't usually pay much attention to these). Feels different from just being in a very good mood basically. Hopely, I have not just used the self-drop term wrongly. :P
Realization: Not referring to volition this time, I was just thinking about attention. But thanks for bringing it up.
I see. There are different degrees into which the sense of self is dropped. (Impersonality, one mind, no mind, etc)
If you suddenly have the experience that the division between and inside observer and outside world dissolves, where you are no longer seeing from an inside but rather the seeing and the seen cannot be seperated, that is a nondual experience. However it is still temporary.
When you develop insights it will become effortless.
Ah, I actually have no idea which is which. Hopefully I'll be on the right path towards developing insights.
Regarding degrees of self, I wrote this several months ago in DhO:
If that is the case, it appears you are at the One Mind phase.
I was trained in this 3 aspects:
1. The experience
2. The realization
3. and the View
I will start with 'experience'. There are different experiences in relation to 'no self':
1. Impersonality.
This
is the case when practitioners experienced that everything is an
expression of a universal cosmic intelligence. There is therefore no
sense of a personal doer... rather, it feels like I and everything is
being lived by a higher power, being expressed by a higher cosmic
intelligence. But this is still dualistic – there is still this sense of
separation between a 'cosmic intelligence' and the 'world of
experience', so it is still dualistic.
There is also a very
important realization - the realization of Pure Presence or
Consciousness or Beingness or Existence as being one's true identity.
There is an irrefutable undeniable insight into the luminous essence of
mind. Actually self-realization is not related to impersonality in the
sense that impersonality can be experienced with or without
self-realization, however a self-realized person would progress his
experience in terms of impersonality. Nevertheless dualistic tendencies
are strong and awareness is seen as an eternal witnessing presence, a
pure formless perceiving subject. A true experience is being distorted
by the mind's tendency at projecting duality and inherency (to things,
self, awareness, etc)
2. Non-dual into One Mind.
Where subject and object division collapsed into a single seamless experience of one Naked Awareness.
3. No-Mind
Where
even the naked Awareness is totally forgotten and dissolved into simply
scenery, sound, arising thoughts and passing scent.
4. Sunyata
My
experience here is still at the beginning phase. It is when the 'self'
is completely transcended into dependent originated activity. The play
of dharma.
Next is the 'Realization'. Having an experience of
witnessing, or a state of pure presence, is not the same as having
attained self-realization - in that case the practitioner can be said to
have an experience, but not insight/realization. Having an experience
is not the same as having a realization... for example, you may have a
temporary experience where the sense of separation between experiencer
and experience suddenly and temporarily dissolves or there is the sense
that subject and object has merged... temporarily. This is not yet the
realization of non-duality... the realization that separation has been
false right from the beginning... there never was separation.
Hence
having non-dual samadhis are *not* enlightenment... why? The
realization that there never was separation to begin with, hasn't
arisen. Therefore you can only have temporary glimpses and experiences
of non-dual... where the latent dualistic tendencies continue to
surface... and not have seamless, effortless seeing.
And even
after seeing through this separation, you may have the realization of
non-dual but still fall into substantial non-duality, or One Mind. Why?
This is because though we have overcome the bond of duality, our view of
reality is still seeing it as 'inherent'. Our view or framework has it
that reality must have an inherent essence or substance to it, something
permanent, independent, ultimate. So though everything is experienced
without separation, the mind still can't overcome the idea of a source.
The mind kept coming back to a 'source' and is unable to break-through
and find the constant need to rest in an ultimate reality in which
everything is a part of... a Mind, an Awareness, a Self.... what this
results is a subtle tendency to cling, to sink back to a ground, a
source, and so transience cannot be fully appreciated for what it is. It
is an important phase however, as for the first time phenomena are no
longer seen as 'happening IN Awareness' but 'happening AS Awareness' –
Awareness is its object of perception, Awareness is expressing itself as
every moment of manifest perception.
However, there is still a
constant referencing back to the One Awareness. Until you see that the
idea itself is merely a thought, and everything is merely thoughts,
sights, sounds, disjoint, disperse, insubstantial. There, a change of
view takes place... experience remains non-dual but without the view of
'everything is inside me/everything is an expression of ME' but 'there
is just thoughts, sight, sound, taste' – just manifestation. At this
point you realize no self in the sense of Anatta – just sight, sound,
thoughts, with no one behind or linking them. After anatta, you can then
proceed to experience and realize how every experience, every
manifestation is the interaction of the entire universe... the total
exertion of the universe, the totality of causes and conditions, gives
rise to this moment of manifestation.
p.s. described more in my e-journal/e-book, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html