Learning Buddhism starts with Taking Refuge
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Dhammapada is Buddha's words.
Taking refuge is mentioned in many, not one, sutta.
The 4NT implicitly implies the necessity of the three refuges. Without Buddha, there is no Dharma sassana, and without Sangha, the Dharma cannot be disseminated. They are interconnected and intrinsically inseparable.
Can you be sure the Dhammapada is the Buddha's words only and does not contained some words from its writers'?
The 4NT did NOT imply the refuge. It is your implication.
The refuge is like a respite from the world of samsara, The sarana is like a place where one goes to find peace, security and safety. By all means take refuge but the title of this thread is 'learning Buddhism starts with taking refuge' - to which I disagree. You are barking up the wrong tree.
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Then how can you be sure that 4NT is the Buddha's words only and not the words from its writers?
Pali Suttas, as I have explained before, is a reliable source of the Buddha's original words.
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Originally posted by realization:
No. That's not at all what I mean.
Even if you don't understand. Many on this forum will find resonance with what I've just said to you.
I will say it again... First learn Right Speech, Right Intention and learn Buddha's brand of Morality.
hahaha, so you moved from right speech to right intention and Buddha's brand. What next?
I can assure you that my intention is good. It is your perception as well as your dislike of my style - this is your suffering.
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You are intellectualizing 4NTs, and because you do not take refuge and rely on the triple gems, you cannot benefit from it. Like a person seeing a doctor but not willing to take prescription and medicine.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Then how can you be sure that 4NT is the Buddha's words only and not the words from its writers?
Pali Suttas, as I have explained before, is a reliable source of the Buddha's original words.
Honestly, I cannot tell whether the 4NT is Buddha's words as I have not heard directly from him.
Various canonical texts claimed to be original. Texts were written years after the Buddha's death. One must be very naive to believe the written texts to be exact words of the Buddha only. First of all, you have no idea who the writers were, how many of them, and how long they took.
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Then have faith. Yes, not very different from Christianity, I know. Faith is one of the five powers in Buddhism that can lead you to liberation.
But what I mean is not blind faith - but faith like in scientific method, you need some trust in the scientist, the textbook, to perform the experiment yourself.
You need some trust in the countless practitioners before and now who have done it based on practicing what the scriptures taught.
You need some trust in the suttas. You need to put it into practice.
And I can assure you that it works.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Strengths
[edit] Exegesis
Faith and Wisdom balance each other, as do Energy and Concentration. The Five Faculties are ‘controlling' faculties because they control or master their opposites. The faculties and powers are two aspects of the same thing.
- Faith (saddha) - controls doubt
- Energy/Effort/Persistence (viriya) – controls laziness
- Mindfulness (sati); - controls heedlessness
- Concentration (sam�dhi) - controls distraction
- Wisdom/Discernment (pañña, prajña) – controls ignorance
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
Honestly, I cannot tell whether the 4NT is Buddha's words as I have not heard directly from him.
Various canonical texts claimed to be original. Texts were written years after the Buddha's death. One must be very naive to believe the written texts to be exact words of the Buddha only. First of all, you have no idea who the writers were, how many of them, and how long they took.
No one's said that there were no divergences in various versions of the sutras. However Buddhist historians have found that these divergences, where present, were inconsequential and did not affect the basic message.
If you don't even want to tentatively trust that the 4NTs were the Buddha's words, how can you even begin to practice?
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I always remember what Paramahansa Yogananda said in one of his talks...
This is what I posted about it some time back.
"A famous yogi Paramahasa Yogananda, though not of the Buddhist path, has ever said that... while free inquiry is good, doubt needs to be suspended for a length of time if one is to test the value and efficacy of any particular spiritual path. In other words, we must give any chosen path of cultivation a fair go for some time, so as to scientifically ascertain whether it leads to realization or not."
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
You are intellectualizing 4NTs, and because you do not take refuge and rely on the triple gems, you cannot benefit from it. Like a person seeing a doctor but not willing to take prescription and medicine.
This is your imagination. I stated that the implication you made are your own, nothing was mentioned in the 4NT. You are distorting the 4NT by your own 'implication'. I said nothing about the 4NTs while you are the one who make an implication out of the 4NTs.
Taking refuge is personal choice - if one needs sarana. The 4NTs did not spell that as a requirement nor did Buddha said that on his last day.
So, cut the crap about medicine - it is irrelevant to your claim that one cannot benefit from the dharma without taking refuge. It is just your dogmatism.
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Taking refuge is a personal choice, but an important one.
It's like the doctors prescribe you medicine, but whether you eat the medicine, is a personal choice but an important one.
Buddha, dharma, sangha can be of no benefit to you if you do not take refuge and rely in them.
Only if you rely on the triple gems, just like only if you rely on the doctor, the medicine and the nurse, to help you help yourself, can you be healed. Doctor is like Buddha, medicine is like dharma, and nurse is like sangha.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Then have faith. Yes, not very different from Christianity, I know. Faith is one of the five powers in Buddhism that can lead you to liberation.
But what I mean is not blind faith - but faith like in scientific method, you need some trust in the scientist, the textbook, to perform the experiment yourself.
You need some trust in the countless practitioners before and now who have done it based on practicing what the scriptures taught.
You need some trust in the suttas. You need to put it into practice.
And I can assure you that it works.
I have written about faith in another thread. Suffice to say, there are people who go by faith - plain trust or belief. If trust came about without some basis, check or verification, then it is blind faith. So the faith you talked about is actually blind faith. People don't like the word 'blind' and I explained that already.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
I have written about faith in another thread. Suffice to say, there are people who go by faith - plain trust or belief. If trust came about without some basis, check or verification, then it is blind faith. So the faith you talked about is actually blind faith. People don't like the word 'blind' and I explained that already.
I have already explained how relying on the suttas in the pali canons are reliable.
Unfortunately, you have given rise to excessive and unhealthy levels of doubt - even to the point whether the four noble truths are the words of Buddha.
If you cannot trust the 4nts, and by that all teachings of the Buddha, then you can never hope to gain liberation.
As realization said:
"A famous yogi Paramahasa Yogananda, though not of the Buddhist path, has ever said that... while free inquiry is good, doubt needs to be suspended for a length of time if one is to test the value and efficacy of any particular spiritual path. In other words, we must give any chosen path of cultivation a fair go for some time, so as to scientifically ascertain whether it leads to realization or not."
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Taking refuge is a personal choice, but an important one.
It's like the doctors prescribe you medicine, but whether you eat the medicine, is a personal choice but an important one.
Buddha, dharma, sangha can be of no benefit to you if you do not take refuge and rely in them.
Only if you rely on the triple gems, just like only if you rely on the doctor, the medicine and the nurse, to help you help yourself, can you be healed. Doctor is like Buddha, medicine is like dharma, and nurse is like sangha.
If you wish to rely on the triple gems there is no stopping you. My point is this: learning Buddhism need not start with refuge-taking. Also, one can benefit from the dharma only. Buddha is dead. The sangha can go wrong, rogue and many monks don't teach the dharma!
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
If you wish to rely on the triple gems there is no stopping you. My point is this: learning Buddhism need not start with refuge-taking. Also, one can benefit from the dharma only. Buddha is dead. The sangha can go wrong, rogue and many monks don't teach the dharma!
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/refuge_in_the_buddha.php
...the Buddhist tradition insists that when we go for refuge to the Buddha, we place ourselves under the guidance of one who is distinctly different from ourselves, one who has scaled heights that we have barely begun to glimpse.
But when we rely upon the recluse Gotama as our refuge, we do not apprehend him merely as a particular individual, a wise and sensible sage. We apprehend him rather as a Buddha. It is his Buddhahood -- his possession of the full range of excellent qualities that come with perfect enlightenment -- that makes the recluse Gotama a refuge. In any cosmic epoch, a Buddha is that being who first breaks through the dark mass of ignorance encompassing the world and rediscovers the lost path to Nibbana, the cessation of suffering. He is the pioneer, the trailblazer, who discovers the path and proclaims the path so that others, by following his tracks, may extinguish their ignorance, arrive at true wisdom, and break the fetters that tie them to the round of repeated birth and death.
For the refuge in the Buddha to be genuine, it must be accompanied by a commitment to the Buddha as an incomparable teacher, as unexcelled and unsurpassed. Strictly speaking, the historical Buddha is not unique since there have been earlier Fully Enlightened Ones who have arisen in past epochs and there will be others who will arise in future epochs as well. But in any one world system it is impossible for a second Buddha to arise while the teaching of another Buddha is still extant, and thus in terms of human history we are justified in regarding the Buddha as a unique teacher, unequalled by any other spiritual teacher known to humanity. It is this readiness to recognize the Buddha as "the unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed, the teacher of gods and humans" that is the hallmark of an authentic act of taking refuge in the Buddha.
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It is important to take refuge in the Buddha as an 'incomparable teacher, unexcelled and unsurpassed' - simply because there are countless teachers, most who do not teach you liberation but to a path contrary to liberation.
That is why we must decide to follow the Buddha and not take refuge in other teachers who teach contrary to liberation.
Means if we want to gain liberation, we must commit ourselves to Buddha as our main unsurpassed teacher, and not say some Hindu, Christian, or some other teachers.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I have already explained how relying on the suttas in the pali canons are reliable.
Unfortunately, you have given rise to excessive and unhealthy levels of doubt - even to the point whether the four noble truths are the words of Buddha.
If you cannot trust the 4nts, and by that all teachings of the Buddha, then you can never hope to gain liberation.
As realization said:
"A famous yogi Paramahasa Yogananda, though not of the Buddhist path, has ever said that... while free inquiry is good, doubt needs to be suspended for a length of time if one is to test the value and efficacy of any particular spiritual path. In other words, we must give any chosen path of cultivation a fair go for some time, so as to scientifically ascertain whether it leads to realization or not."
Many religious adherents go by faith. For them, it is too much trouble to enquire, discover, ascertain and so forth. To borrow your example, it is the same way when you consult a doctor, you place your trust that he is a competent doctor who will not misdiagnose your ailment.
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As for your concern about sangha going rougue,
The Sangha of the third refuge is not the all-inclusive congregation of monks, having all the weaknesses of its single members and sharing in the shortcomings attaching to any human institution. It is rather the fraternity of holy disciples, not necessarily monks, who are united by the invisible tie of common attainment to the four stages of sanctity. In other words, it is likewise of supramundane nature. It is the assurance of possible progress to the world-transcending heights of a mind made holy and pure.
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel076.html
The sangha here refers to the noble aryas (enlightened ones), the arya sangha.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
Many religious adherents go by faith. For them, it is too much trouble to enquire, discover, ascertain and so forth. To borrow your example, it is the same way when you consult a doctor, you place your trust that he is a competent doctor who will not misdiagnose your ailment.
Buddhism provides you a method to ascertain yourself, but you have to follow it. For example, you can't attain enlightenment through hardcore ascetism, you can only attain enlightenment through eightfold path. So you must accept it by faith at first, put it into practice and see the results yourself. Just like any other scientific method.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/refuge_in_the_buddha.php
...the Buddhist tradition insists that when we go for refuge to the Buddha, we place ourselves under the guidance of one who is distinctly different from ourselves, one who has scaled heights that we have barely begun to glimpse.
But when we rely upon the recluse Gotama as our refuge, we do not apprehend him merely as a particular individual, a wise and sensible sage. We apprehend him rather as a Buddha. It is his Buddhahood -- his possession of the full range of excellent qualities that come with perfect enlightenment -- that makes the recluse Gotama a refuge. In any cosmic epoch, a Buddha is that being who first breaks through the dark mass of ignorance encompassing the world and rediscovers the lost path to Nibbana, the cessation of suffering. He is the pioneer, the trailblazer, who discovers the path and proclaims the path so that others, by following his tracks, may extinguish their ignorance, arrive at true wisdom, and break the fetters that tie them to the round of repeated birth and death.
For the refuge in the Buddha to be genuine, it must be accompanied by a commitment to the Buddha as an incomparable teacher, as unexcelled and unsurpassed. Strictly speaking, the historical Buddha is not unique since there have been earlier Fully Enlightened Ones who have arisen in past epochs and there will be others who will arise in future epochs as well. But in any one world system it is impossible for a second Buddha to arise while the teaching of another Buddha is still extant, and thus in terms of human history we are justified in regarding the Buddha as a unique teacher, unequalled by any other spiritual teacher known to humanity. It is this readiness to recognize the Buddha as "the unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed, the teacher of gods and humans" that is the hallmark of an authentic act of taking refuge in the Buddha.
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It is important to take refuge in the Buddha as an 'incomparable teacher, unexcelled and unsurpassed' - simply because there are countless teachers, most who do not teach you liberation but to a path contrary to liberation.
That is why we must decide to follow the Buddha and not take refuge in other teachers who teach contrary to liberation.
Means if we want to gain liberation, we must commit ourselves to Buddha as our main unsurpassed teacher, and not say some Hindu, Christian, or some other teachers.
It is well and good to talk about guidance. The Buddha is dead. How is he to guide you? There are members of the sangha who don't teach. They just want to practice to attain enlightenment.
Back to what I said earlier, refuge taking is like seeking a place of peace and security. That's why it is personal. I am also aware of the chant, the exhortation. But don't get confused. This refuge-taking is a 'religious' requirement, not the requirement to attain nirvana.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
It is well and good to talk about guidance. The Buddha is dead. How is he to guide you? There are members of the sangha who don't teach. They just want to practice to attain enlightenment.
Back to what I said earlier, refuge taking is like seeking a place of peace and security. That's why it is personal. I am also aware of the chant, the exhortation. But don't get confused. This refuge-taking is a 'religious' requirement, not the requirement to attain nirvana.
The Buddha is dead but his dharma is still around, so we must rely on his dharma, and likewise, we must commit ourselves to him and his teachings and the community of enlightened ones as our main guidance towards liberation.
Even though buddha is dead, we still have to commit ourselves to him as our main teacher, and not some others like jesus, mohammad or what not.
If we do not make such commitment and go around learning and practicing various kinds of religions, then I'm afraid we may steer far away from the path of enlightenment.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Buddhism provides you a method to ascertain yourself, but you have to follow it. For example, you can't attain enlightenment through hardcore ascetism, you can only attain enlightenment through eightfold path. So you must accept it by faith at first, put it into practice and see the results yourself. Just like any other scientific method.
I am amazed you talk about 'method'. I have expressed the 4NTs as a problem-solving method - the method to solve the problem of suffering. Now you say the 4NTs is a method and not experential realization of the Buddha?
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
It is well and good to talk about guidance. The Buddha is dead. How is he to guide you? There are members of the sangha who don't teach. They just want to practice to attain enlightenment.
Back to what I said earlier, refuge taking is like seeking a place of peace and security. That's why it is personal. I am also aware of the chant, the exhortation. But don't get confused. This refuge-taking is a 'religious' requirement, not the requirement to attain nirvana.
By your logic too...
The sutras may not have been accurately transmitted.
Then how will you ascertain which is the bonafide Dharma to guide you?
The only way to do it is to first suspend your doubt, practise and find out if the sutras are telling the true story. It's a risk one has to take.
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Originally posted by I No Stupid:
I am amazed you talk about 'method'. I have expressed the 4NTs as a problem-solving method - the method to solve the problem of suffering. Now you say the 4NTs is a method and not experential realization of the Buddha?
4NTs are truths derived from experiential realization, and the 4th truth - the path to the end of suffering, contains the method, the method being the noble eight fold path.
So the method is one part of the 4 noble truths. The method is born out of Buddha's experience.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
The Buddha is dead but his dharma is still around, so we must rely on his dharma, and likewise, we must commit ourselves to him and his teachings and the community of enlightened ones as our main guidance towards liberation.
Even though buddha is dead, we still have to commit ourselves to him as our main teacher, and not some others like jesus, mohammad or what not.
If we do not make such commitment and go around learning and practicing various kinds of religions, then I'm afraid we may steer far away from the path of enlightenment.
How one wants to commit is again personal. Refuge-taking may be one. To me, it is a 'religious-practice' requirement and does not necessarily mean that the refuge-taking Buddhist is a committed one! People just go thru the ceremony for some reason, just like baptism.