Nagarjuna on the Eight Extremes
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would someone be so kind as to help me copy and paste the contents of the top article in
http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/search/label/Nagarjuna here as I have difficulty doing that with my phone, thnx -
Eight Extremes - Nagarjuna
Based on dependent origination something occurs, yet
There is no arising nor passing away.
There is no nihilism nor eternalism.
There is no coming nor going.
There are not many nor one event(s).
Whatever tends to be elaborated becomes almost calm again and again.
Nagarjuna.
When you meditate it seems as though a lot of experiences arise. You see this, you see that, and it seems to pass into and out of awareness, each experience followed by another.
And yet as meditation deepens, the ability to clearly see 'things' or experiences fades away. This isn't because your awareness is getting duller or you are losing your ability to retain any clarity in meditation. On the contrary, it actually happens as awareness and clarity deepen.
As your meditation deepens you find that what formerly appeared as substantial now no longer has such a distinct and demarcated identity. You increasingly find it hard to see exactly where 'something' is, or where it isn't.
There seems little doubt that something is occurring, that something is arising. Yet you cannot in any way point to it, and say 'this is this' or 'that is that'.
Do things arise? I really have no idea.
Do they cease? I don't know.
Do they appear to arise - it would seem so. Where are they, or where were they - I have no idea. And so it goes.
Such definites as 'it does exist' fade away. They simply don't hold. And equally their negation - it doesn't exist' don't apply to what you experience, what you know - at all.
Mind is as it is. Experience is as it is. And there's little that one can say about it. -
The top article here too http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/search/label/unobstructed the website is truly full of gemß
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Where does thought come from? Where does it reside? Where does it go? Unfindable - unfathomable - ungraspable... Haha! The entire universe is a wonderful magic show of luminous apparitions!
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Learn to label your posts. This is not something a begginer should read.
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Reflections on Niguma - Vajra Verses of Self-Liberating Mahamudra - Reflections
The wisdom dakini known as Nigupta, illustrious Narotapa's sister, was a self-manifest yogini, a powerful lord bodhisattva on awakening's tenth stage, who received direct instruction from Conqueror Vajra Bearer. She sang these vajra verses of self-liberating Great Seal:
Nature of mind,
Wish-fulfilling jewel, to you I bow.
Wishing to attain perfect enlightenment,
Visualize your body clearly as the deity
To purify ordinary thoughts.
Develop a noble intention to help others
And pure devotion to your spiritual master.
Don't dwell on your spiritual master or the deity.
Don't bring anything to mind,
Be it real or imagined.
Rest uncontrived in the innate state.
Your own mind, uncontrived, is the body of ultimate enlightenment.
To remain undistracted within this is meditation's essential point.
Realize the great, boundless, expansive state.
Myriad thoughts of anger and desire
Propel you within the seas of existence.
Take the sharp sword of the unborn state
And cut through them to their lack of intrinsic nature.
When you cut a tree's root,
Its branches won't grow.
On a bright ocean,
Bubbles emerge then dissolve back into the water.
Likewise, thoughts are nothing but the nature of reality:
Don't regard them as faults. Relax.
When you have no clinging to what appears, what arises,
It frees itself within its own ground.
Appearances, sound, and phenomena are your own mind.
There are no phenomena apart from mind.
Mind is free from birth, cessation,
And formulation.
Those who know mind's nature
Enjoy the five senses' pleasures
But do not stray from the nature of reality.
On an island of gold,
You search in vain for earth and stones.
In the equanimity of the great absolute expanse,
There is no acceptance or rejection,
No states of meditation or postmeditation.
When you actualize that state,
It is spontaneously present,
Fulfilling beings' hopes
Like a wish-fulfilling jewel.
Persons of highest, middle and common levels of capability
Should learn this in stages suitable to their understanding.
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from Timeless Rapture - Inspired verses of the Shangpa Masters.
compiled by Jamgon Kongtrul.
Translated by Ngawang Zangpo.
Selections from an alternative translation are here.
After preliminary instructions, of maintaining vajra pride, bodhicitta and guru devotion, Niguma's beautiful verses teach how to realise ordinary mind through mahamudra, through the non-meditation, and the self-liberation of all experiences.Don't dwell on your spiritual master or the deity.
Don't bring anything to mind,
Be it real or imagined.
Rest contrived in the innate state.
There's no need to alter your mind in any way, to bring anything in particular or special to mind. You can recognise how mind or experience is, how it truly is, and how it appears, at any time, with any particular thought or appearance present, or none at all.Your own mind, uncontrived, is the body of ultimate enlightenment.
To remain undistracted within this is meditation's essential point.
Realize the great, boundless, expansive state.
Experience, just as it is, at any time, *is* the Dharmakaya. It is empty, it cannot be found. When I'm aware and rest in that awareness in how experience is, it's clear it isn't anything. It isn't anywhere. It isn't anything that a concept can tie up or encapsulate. Knowing mind's nature, mind is ungraspable and indescribable. This groundlessness *is* what the notion of Dharmakaya points to.
It's relatively easy to know this, to experience this. But to rest in that knowing - *that* is much, much harder to do. To remain undistracted in this resting, without falling off into conceptual thought, or losing that groundlessness that one is resting in .... like balancing on the tip of a needle, for one of limited capacity as myself. It's also easy to get lost in 'understanding' this, rather than knowing it .... but what is the relation between understanding concepts and direct experience?
Just as it's impossible to say where experience is, where mind is, just so is it impossible to say that it's limited in any way. Experience appears to be boundless, without circumference, without limits. Empty, open and full is experience.Myriad thoughts of anger and desire
Propel you within the seas of existence.
Take the sharp sword of the unborn state
And cut through them to their lack of intrinsic nature.
When you cut a tree's root,
Its branches won't grow.
The disturbing emotions create the six realms of existence for us. As they arise, so too does the corresponding realm, and so too do we appear to inhabit that realm, that aspect of samsaric conditioned existence, without either knowing or freedom.
As such as anger or desire arises, it's easy to lose knowing, to lose our resting in the knowing of the groundless, empty nature of experience, and to get sucked up into 'believing' in the solidity, the facticity, the reality of the emotion that arises. As we lose that knowing, then we get lost in a world of seemingly solidity that pushes and pulls away at us, driving us on and on, and giving rise to a sense of 'me' as well as 'other' or 'things'. These arise simultaneously with the loss of resting in knowing emptiness. As Niguma says, we are propelled on ... a lovely choice of word which describes so well how we are as if a runaway train, without little ability to either steer or stop our course.
Yet as we come to knowing, as we realise our error, and being groundlessness back into view, that simple recollection cuts all the roots of this delusion, and the six realms dissolve from whence they came .. like dreams they melt away in an instance. In meditation or postmeditation, when you rest in minds nature, it's almost impossible to imagine how disturbing emotions could ever arise again, or how you could ever ride the runaway train of samsaric realms again. (and yet you do, time and time again!).On a bright ocean,
Bubbles emerge then dissolve back into the water.
Likewise, thoughts are nothing but the nature of reality:
Don't regard them as faults. Relax.
How strongly I tried to get away from thoughts in my early days of meditation, and attempt to quieten the mind through subduing this enemy! Myriad ways of working with thoughts, each more subtle than the last, but each with the same end in mind - to get rid of thoughts from my mind, and instill clarity, peacefulness and stillness.
It's funny that, how pushing a cork down into the water results in? ... results in the cork shooting up out of the waters surface ... reacting to the effort, and triggering a new cycle of activity.
Regarding thoughts as in any way problematic, or to be removed is counterproductive. Thoughts are just what they are, seeming arisings in mind, seeming appearances in experience. When aware of thoughts, what is known? They are empty in nature - you can't find a thought, you can't hold it, you can't pin it down. It comes from where? .. we can't say ... they go to where? we can't say. And whilst seeming there ... are they there? ... we can't say. Ungraspable and unfathomable are thoughts.
So thoughts reveal the nature of experience, when knowing is directed there. Just like anything else, their nature is the same. Not different from a still mind, not different from an 'enlightened' mind, not different from any other experience at all. Thoughts are empty. Know them, and you will not find them. Bizarre but true - the more clearly you know, the less that's there to actually know!
Why on earth would you want to get rid of them, when they are precisely what you are looking for?
One of the most direct ways I can know the nature of mind is to cause a thought to arise, and 'see' whether the nature of experience changes before, during or after the thought is there. Or to see where it comes from, abides at, and goes to. Etc. Resting in the response to those allows me to know that mind/experience doesn't change in nature whether thought is present or not. Empty, and groundless.
Of course, our habitual patterns tend toward grasping onto ideas. Many of us find them particularly alluring, and we buy into them as if they were 'fact', rather than thought. Then we get lost. But as we practice the entrancing quality of thoughts lessens, and we can more easily know them as just what they are, just another seeming appearance in mind.
As we come to know the nature of thoughts, we can ask "what is going on at the story level" ... and rest in the gap or response that arises. Knowing thoughts in this way, we see them as no other than mind's nature, as empty arisings.
As we because less fearful of thoughts through no longer seeing them as the enemy of meditation, we can relax, and rest in what is, whatever is, and know if for what it is.When you have no clinging to what appears, what arises,
It frees itself within its own ground.
Without clinging to what arises, without pushing or pulling at it (with desire or ill-will), without attempting to apply any antidote to it, just allowing it to be, and resting in the knowing, thoughts naturally self-liberate, they are empty in nature, and mind remains empty throughout.Appearances, sound, and phenomena are your own mind.
There are no phenomena apart from mind.
Mind is free from birth, cessation,
And formulation.
When an appearance arises, such as a sound, we can ask "where is this thought"? The knowing that arises in the resting after this question reveals the same answer as when we ask "where is mind"? Nowhere and yet everywhere.
I can't find a difference when knowing mind and knowing thought. I can't find a difference when knowing 'awareness' and knowing 'what it is that awareness holds'. When I ask "what is this"? ..... and direct knowing towards awareness itself ..... that is, when I know 'mind' in Niguma's teaching .... and also when I ask "what is known by awareness?" when I direct awareness towards whatever seems to be known or held by awareness ... I can't find anything that would allow me to say 'these are different.
There's different flavours to directing one's attention to awareness or to what seems to arise in awareness .... they seem to appeal to me at different times, and keep practice fresh. But when I know either .... inseparable is the only way I can describe what is revealed.
When I rest in experience, it's clear that experience is what there is. No phenomena are known to mind beyond itself. There's nothing out there, and there's nothing in here. There's nothing other than the endless unfolding of experience, nothing other than mind itself. It's not saying that nothing exists outside of 'my' mind. It's simply that I know nothing of anything other than experience. How could I? Nothing I know is untouched by awareness. Nothing is known 'before' it touches experience or awareness or mind. There is nothing beyond experience that can be known. The great completeness. Innocence
When "where do appearances (of sight, sound, pressure, etc) arise from"? And where do they go to? Where are they when they are arisen? Do these 'things' actually happen at all? Mind's nature remains the same, and untouched by all of this seeming display. Not a jot more, or less, better or worse is the nature of experience, regardless of whatever seems to arise.Those who know mind's nature
Enjoy the five senses' pleasures
But do not stray from the nature of reality.
On an island of gold,
You search in vain for earth and stones.
No longer either caught up in pushing/pulling, in Samsara's game ... nor indeed caught up in trying to change things, trying to apply antidotes, trying to get somewhere in meditation, trying to make things better, in hopes or fears .... no longer caught up in all this .... one can simply abide in what is ... know if for what it is ... and enjoy the magician's display ... the dance of luminosity ... and smile :-)
Why try to change mind, when it is 'perfect' as it is? Why look for rocks and stones of ideas of perfection, when knowing reveals the great completeness/perfection, right here and now, wherever that is?In the equanimity of the great absolute expanse,
There is no acceptance or rejection,
No states of meditation or postmeditation.
You don't need to do anything at all ... just relax and rest in mind's nature. You don't need to change anything, to get anywhere ... all goals are empty .... just rest .. and what needs to be done is revealed each moment ... and actions take place, effortlessly, without doing, without a doer.When you actualize that state,
It is spontaneously present,
Fulfilling beings' hopes
Like a wish-fulfilling jewel.
Should I ever remain resting in wakefulness, rather than slipping off the resting, then no doubt activities will flow forth, as the teachings say .... and Enlightened activity will pervade the ten directions!Persons of highest, middle and common levels of capability
Should learn this in stages suitable to their understanding.
Dimwits such as I .... build capacity to do nothing ... rest, slip away, come back, rest again ... slip away. Knowing is timeless, awareness is timeless ... coming back to it ... you've never been aware .. stringing a thread of beads, of beads that are not discrete or other than infinity ....
such as it is ... is how it is ... awareness opens .... and resting in this allows knowing to deepen.
What does it reveal ... nothing other than what was there all along.
The taste of grapes, the sight of mountains ... the discordant sound of car engines ... just what they are ... complete, and none other than empty, lucid, and unhindered ...
"May Niguma's heart words illuminate the hearts of all beings ... and the unborn awareness bring great peace to all" -
There is no nihilism nor eternalism.
This statement very important.
Alot of non-buddhist tot no self means nothing exists in buddhism. I don't exist there's no me ... ...
There's no table, no chairs,no universes ... ...
They have nihilistic views.
Eternalism mean things exist forever which is a false view.
Maybe doctrines like an etenal soul.
This is my point of view correct me if I am wrong.
Buddhism teaches middle way.
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Yes, indeed emptiness is the freedom from all extreme views like existence and non-existence. Emptiness does not deny five skandhas, the reality as we observe it, as insight into anatta reveals all transient phenomena to be pristine awareness itself and thus utterly vivid, intimate, actual and seemingly real. But the further realisation of emptiness shows how all phenomena are void of inherent existence in and of itself, independent of conditions. There is the insight into how the entire experiential universe, the five skandhas as we experience it - is empty, void, coreless, substanceless - that it is like the magician's magic tricks, a magical apparition that is substanceless behind its appearance. being a magical luminous display that cannot be pinned down or located, it far transcends view of existence, nonexistence, birth, abiding, and death. the unborn nature of dharmas is realised.
i wrote an email to thusness titled "the unborn dharma":
In attempting to find and locate where thought comes from, reside, and go to, it is realised that thought is ungraspable, unfindable, unfathomable... A magicians magical apparition, like everything (the experiential universe) is... A wonderful display of luminous emptiness, dependent origination. Yet after this is seen, it is nothing resembling nihilism or non-existence... When someone lights up his lighter to burn an innocent ant, compassion just arise... A magical universe demands magical response and compassion from no one to no one
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Originally posted by Almond Cookies:
There is no nihilism nor eternalism.
This statement very important.
Alot of non-buddhist tot no self means nothing exists in buddhism. I don't exist there's no me ... ...
There's no table, no chairs,no universes ... ...
They have nihilistic views.
Eternalism mean things exist forever which is a false view.
Maybe doctrines like an etenal soul.
This is my point of view correct me if I am wrong.
Buddhism teaches middle way.
:) yes, non-dual, almost there. still got one more level of no wandering thoughts. as still got this wandering thought of non-dual or middle way. :) it's also no "neither nihilism nor eternalism". that's true emptiness. Impermanent is permanent.Heart sutra:- Form IS emptiness. Emptiness IS form. Form doesn't negate emptiness. Emptiness doesn't negate form.
"eternalism is nihilism, nihilism is eternalism. eternalism doesn't negate nihilism, nihilism doesn't negate eternalism. "
useful maxim:- "Sunyata affirms the existence of existence, but negates the self-nature of existence."
http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Lamp.pdf
all depends on conditions. 缘起性空. best in Mahayana to round things up.
freedom from all extreme views is right. then one will go and grasp that extreme views is wrong? yet freedom from all extreme views also include "sticking" to "extreme views" in certain situation to help break attachment of some sentient beings. but in truth, one is not really attached to that extreme, it's just pretending. and that's true freedom from all extreme views. :)
/\
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there is one quote i like very much that i read before but it didnt made sense to me until i re read it yesterday:
Lankavatara Sutra:
Mahamati: How did the Bodhisattvas and Mahasattvas abandon the view of an absolute arising, dwelling, or dissolving?
[Buddha]: They abandoned it in this manner. They cognized that all phenomena are like an ephemeral illusion and dream, that they are detached from the duality of self and others, and that they are therefore unborn [emptiness.] They focused on the mind's manifestations and cognized external reality as unreal. By perceiving the unreality of phenomena, they brought about the cessation of the outflowing sensory consciousness. Because they cognized the unreality of their psychosomatic aggregates and the interacting conditions of the three planes of cosmic existence as originating from their deluded mind, they saw external and internal phenomena as devoid of any inherent nature and as transcending all concepts. Having abandoned the view of an absolute arising [of phenomena,] they realized the illusory nature and thereby attained insight into the unborn Dharma [expanse of emptiness.]
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In the process of searching for all that manifests as mind and matter
There is neither anything to be found nor is there any seeker,
For to be unreal is to be unborn and unceasing In the three periods of time.
That which is immutable Is the state of great bliss.
Savaripa.
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just found another great post... that talks about the compassion i talked about
http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2007/11/gampopa-compassion-with-reference-to.html -
Originally posted by sinweiy:
:) yes, non-dual, almost there. still got one more level of no wandering thoughts. as still got this wandering thought of non-dual or middle way. :) it's also no "neither nihilism nor eternalism". that's true emptiness. Impermanent is permanent.Heart sutra:- Form IS emptiness. Emptiness IS form. Form doesn't negate emptiness. Emptiness doesn't negate form.
"eternalism is nihilism, nihilism is eternalism. eternalism doesn't negate nihilism, nihilism doesn't negate eternalism. "
useful maxim:- "Sunyata affirms the existence of existence, but negates the self-nature of existence."
http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Lamp.pdf
all depends on conditions. 缘起性空. best in Mahayana to round things up.
freedom from all extreme views is right. then one will go and grasp that extreme views is wrong? yet freedom from all extreme views also include "sticking" to "extreme views" in certain situation to help break attachment of some sentient beings. but in truth, one is not really attached to that extreme, it's just pretending. and that's true freedom from all extreme views. :)
/\
Yes the antidote of emptiness is necessary at first, then in the end even the antidote of emptiness gets dissolved. This post is of relevance http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2007/10/self-liberate-even-antidote.html -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Yes the antidote of emptiness is necessary at first, then in the end even the antidote of emptiness gets dissolved. This post is of relevance http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2007/10/self-liberate-even-antidote.html
The dharma teachings also needed but you got to let go of it to reach the other shore. -
Yes indeed. Want to add something about the extremes of existence and nonexistence.... The world is vividly apparent - sights, sounds, smells, a vivid luminous display. Yet is there truly an 'it' there, truly a 'tree' or a 'flower' out there... In examining those appaearances, no 'itness' can be pinned down, found, or located anywhere. Its nature is emptiness, is its unfindability, ungraspability and unfathomability. Since no 'it' can be found, how can we make the extreme statements of 'it exists' or 'it doesn't exist' when we don't even know what 'it' is? If no 'it' can be pinned down to begin with? How can we say 'flower exist' or 'flower don't exist' when we cannot even find the flowerness of flower? Realising emptiness thereby transcends all extremes.
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1st partriach bodhidharma's "not knowing who he is" and 2nd patriarch hui ke's inability to locate his mind are not results of ignorance but the manifestation of their prajna wisdom discerning emptiness.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
1st partriach bodhidharma’s “not knowing who he is” and 2nd patriarch hui ke’s inability to locate his mind are not results of ignorance but the manifestation of their prajna wisdom discerning emptiness.
Normal ppl will think zen practitoners are crazy.Esp koan practice. Like sound of one hand clap. They say no sound la still need to meditate on it?
U ask jews,muslims and christians who am I koan, they say they r creation of God.
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U show ppl the story of the flower sermon. They will laugh at the story.
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The paradoxical statements in diamond sutra also seem funny to non-buddhists.
Nt easy for non-buddhists to understand buddhism.
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This is because they do not have the wisdom of reality that transcends logic and concepts.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
This is because they do not have the wisdom of reality that transcends logic and concepts.
My secondary school malay frenz lastime found a zen book in library kept on laughing at It. -
Wrote something in Chinese
å¿ƒå¤–æ— æ³•ï¼Œä¸€åˆ‡çš†ç›¸ï¼Œ
相本空明，法���，
有如空�，梦幻泡影，
é”术幻å�˜ï¼Œæœ¬æ— 生ç�，
æ�¥æ— æ�¥å¤„ï¼ŒåŽ»æ— åŽ»å¤„ï¼Œ
ç›¸æ— æ–¹æ‰€ï¼Œå› ç¼˜å�ˆå’Œï¼Œ
妙幻现相，空明幻相，
尽是法身，å�Œç‰æ³•ç•Œï¼Œ
æ— æ³•å�¯ç«‹ï¼Œä½•æ�¥é«˜åº•
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Wrote something in Chinese
å¿ƒå¤–æ— æ³•ï¼Œä¸€åˆ‡çš†ç›¸ï¼Œ
相本空明，法���，
有如空�，梦幻泡影，
é”术幻å�˜ï¼Œæœ¬æ— 生ç�，
æ�¥æ— æ�¥å¤„ï¼ŒåŽ»æ— åŽ»å¤„ï¼Œ
ç›¸æ— æ–¹æ‰€ï¼Œå› ç¼˜å�ˆå’Œï¼Œ
妙幻现相，空明幻相，
尽是法身，å�Œç‰æ³•ç•Œï¼Œ
æ— æ³•å�¯ç«‹ï¼Œä½•æ�¥é«˜åº•
No good. No clarity between 心,法 and 幻相. -
Originally posted by Thusness:
No good. No clarity between 心,法 and 幻相.:P guess still need to refine it...
