Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Theravada also use chanting as a form of meditation, a way to gain samadhi. They also have parittas and sutta chantings, all taught by Buddha in the pali canon, supposed to provide protection, and so on.
What the Buddha was against probably was the use of mantras and spells for selfish, greedy, evil purposes, that only serves to increase one's three poisons. There were mantras used for killing, seducing, harming others, etc. Those are certainly unacceptable.
But if the mantra does not serve evil purpose and instead helps in one's path, then by all means practice that, there is no harm.
As for teachings that go against the Buddha's teachings, what are those you are refering to?
Are you familar with the 40 subjects of Samatha meditation in THeravada buddhism? Chanting is NOT one of them. Chanting has the ability to calm the mind, yes, but if you are talking about getting into mental absorption (jhanas) , it's not one of the Samatha meditation in Theravada.
The function of Parittas and Mantras are bit different. Mantras are invocations for certain boddhisattas to help a being , Parittas are just quotes from the Pali Suttas recited by the monks. If you translate the Parittas into English, you can actually understand what the chant is about For example, Metta sutta - monks chanted this parrita. It's actually better in theravada tradition for a person to understand the paritta while he chants it.
Hi soul2soul,
thanks for clarifying. If I remember, some Theravadin teachers teach that chanting can lead up to 1st Jhana and no more.
From what I know, when you enter jhana, your verbal and physical activities generally stop as you become absorbed in the jhanic bliss. So basically the chanting is just an aid, eventually the person stops chanting as he enters into jhana.
BTW, I remember that Recollection of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is part of the 40 subjects of samatha.
In the Thai Theravadin tradition there is an emphasis on this method.
http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/mindful/05ins2.html
| Ajahn Sumedho |
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The Mantra 'Buddho' If you've got a really active thinking mind, you may find the mantra 'Buddho' helpful. Inhale on 'Bud' and exhale on '-dho' so you're actually thinking this for each inhalation. This is a way of sustaining concentration: so for the next fifteen minutes, do the anapanasati, putting all your attention, composing your mind with the mantric sound, 'Bud-dho'. Learn to train the mind to that point of clarity and brightness rather than just sinking into passivity. It requires sustained effort: one inhalation of 'Bud' - fully bright and clear in your mind, the thought itself raised and bright from the beginning to the end of the inhalation, and '-dho' on the exhalation. Let everything else go at this time. The occasion has arisen now to do just this - you can solve your problems and the world's problems afterwards. At this time this much is all the occasion calls for. Bring the mantra up into consciousness. Make the mantra fully conscious instead of just a perfunctory passive thing that makes the mind dull; energise the mind so that the inhalation on 'Bud' is a bright inhalation, not just a perfunctory 'Bud' sound that fades out because it never gets brightened or refreshed by your mind. You can visualise the spelling so that you're fully with that syllable for the length of an inhalation, from the beginning to the end. Then '-dho' on the exhalation is performed the same way so that there's a continuity of effort rather than sporadic leaps-and-starts and failures. Just notice if you have any obsessive thoughts that are coming up - some silly phrase that might be going through your mind. Now if you just sink into a passive state, then obsessive thoughts will take over. But learning to understand how the mind works and how to use it skilfully, you're taking this particular thought, the concept of 'Buddho' (the Buddha, the One Who Knows), and you're holding it in the mind as a thought. Not just as an obsessive, habitual thought, but as a skilful use of thought, using it to sustain concentration for the length of one inhalation, exhalation, for fifteen minutes. The practice is that, no matter how many times you fail and your mind starts wandering, you simply note that you're distracted, or that you're thinking about it, or you'd rather not bother with 'Buddho' - 'I don't want to do that. I'd rather just sit here and relax and not have to put forth any effort. Don't feel like doing it.' Or maybe you've got other things on your mind at this time, creeping in at the edges of consciousness - so you note that. Note what mood there is in your mind right now - not to be critical or discouraged, but just calmly, coolly notice, if you're calmed by it, or if you feel dull or sleepy; if you've been thinking all this time or if you've been concentrating. Just to know. The obstacle to concentration practice is aversion to failure and the incredible desire to succeed. Practice is not a matter of will-power, but of wisdom, of noting wisdom. With this practice, you can learn where your weaknesses are, where you tend to get lost. You witness the kind of character traits you've developed in your life so far, not to be critical of them but just to know how to work with them and not be enslaved by them. This means a careful, wise reflection on the way things are. So rather than avoiding them at all costs, even the ugliest messes are observed and recognised. That's an enduring quality. Nibbana[3] is often described as being 'cool'. Sounds like hip talk, doesn't it? But there's a certain significance to that word. Coolness to what? It tends to be refreshing, not caught up in passions but detached, alert and balanced. The word 'Buddho' is a word that you can develop in your life as something to fill the mind with rather than with worries and all kinds of unskilful habits. Take the word, look at it, listen to it: 'Buddho'! It means the one who knows, the Buddha, the awakened, that which is awake. You can visualise it in your mind. Listen to what your mind says - blah, blah, blah, etc. It goes on like this, an endless kind of excrement of repressed fears and aversions. So, now, we are recognising that. We're not using 'Buddho' as a club to annihilate or repress things, but as a skilful means. We can use the finest tools for killing and for harming others, can't we? You can take the most beautiful Buddha rupa and bash somebody over the head with it if you want! That's not what we call 'Buddhanussati', Reflection on the Buddha, is it? But we might do that with the word 'Buddho' as a way of suppressing those thoughts or feelings. That's an unskilful use of it. Remember we're not here to annihilate but to allow things to fade out. This is a gentle practice of patiently imposing 'Buddho' over the thinking, not out of exasperation, but in a firm and deliberate way. The world needs to learn how to do this, doesn't it? - the U.S. and the Soviet Union - rather than taking machine guns and nuclear weapons and annihilating things that get in the way; or saying awful nasty things to each other. Even in our lives we do that, don't we? How many of you have said nasty things to someone else recently, wounding things, unkind barbed criticism, just because they annoy you, get in your way, or frighten you? So we practise just this with the little nasty annoying things in our own mind, the things which are foolish and stupid. We use 'Buddho', not as a club but as a skilful means of allowing it to go, to let go of it. Now for the next fifteen minutes, go back to your noses, with the mantra 'Buddho'. See how to use it and work with it. |
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi soul2soul,
thanks for clarifying. If I remember, some Theravadin teachers teach that chanting can lead up to 1st Jhana and no more.
From what I know, when you enter jhana, your verbal and physical activities generally stop as you become absorbed in the jhanic bliss. So basically the chanting is just an aid, eventually the person stops chanting as he enters into jhana.
Dear friend,
Not all of the 40 objects of meditation prescribed by the Buddha in Theravada tradition can reach Jhana.
Most of the Recollections (contemplations) can reach the Access Concentration the most except for Anapanassati (mindfulness of breath - which can reach the 4th Jhanas) and 32 parts of body. (1st Jhana).
I don't know whether chanting can lead to jhana, because I never practiced much chanting myself (though I did practice anapanasati and it was very effective for me).
However I am certain that Anapansati and contemplation of 32 parts is not the only way to enter jhana. Concentration on kasinas is just as popular and effective for that purpose.
"For the meditator to achieve the abhinnas, he should accomplish the eight kasinas in the direct order given in the texts, i.e. from the earth kasina through the white kasina, doing so even up to a thousand times in each one until he is fully adept at it. [2] Having mastered the direct order, the yogin should attain jhana in the kasinas in reverse order, moving from the white kasina back to the earth kasina. [3] He should next attain jhnaa again and again in forward and reverse order from the earth kasina to the white kasina and then back again."
etc...
Originally posted by soul2soul:Are you familar with the 40 subjects of Samatha meditation in THeravada buddhism? Chanting is NOT one of them. Chanting has the ability to calm the mind, yes, but if you are talking about getting into mental absorption (jhanas) , it's not one of the Samatha meditation in Theravada.
The function of Parittas and Mantras are bit different. Mantras are invocations for certain boddhisattas to help a being , Parittas are just quotes from the Pali Suttas recited by the monks. If you translate the Parittas into English, you can actually understand what the chant is about For example, Metta sutta - monks chanted this parrita. It's actually better in theravada tradition for a person to understand the paritta while he chants it.
I particularly is confused on mantra. you mentioned is invocations, seem contrary to what the Buddha has taught.
The article http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/ebmed086.htm
Provides a nice method to enter jhana by first using chanting, then eventually the chanting stops on its accord and one develops the jhana factors and stabilize into it.
Just found a related article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamma%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADh%C4%81na
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The first ten kammatthana are "wholes" (kasina objects, things which one can behold directly):
The next ten are objects of repulsion (asubha):
Ten are recollections (anussati):
Four are stations of Brahma (Brahma-vihara):
Four are formless states (four arūpajh�nas):
One is of perception of disgust of food (aharepatikulasanna).
The last is analysis of the four elements (catudhatuvavatthana): earth (pathavi), water (apo), fire (tejo), air (vayo).
| [show] Table: Jh�na-related factors. |
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Of these, due to their complexity, the first eight recollections, the perception of disgust of food and the analysis of the four elements only lead to access concentration (upacara samadhi).
Absorption in the first jhana can be realized by mindfulness on the ten kinds of foulness and mindfulness of the body. However, these meditations cannot go beyond the first jhana due to their involving applied thought (vitaka) which is absent from the higher jhanas.
Absorption in the first three jhanas can be realized by contemplating the first three brahma-viharas. However, these meditations cannot aid in attaining the fourth jhana due to the pleasant feelings associated with them. Conversely, once the fourth jhana is induced, the fourth brahma-vihara (equanimity) arises.
Due to the simplicity of subject matter, all four jhanas can be induced through mindfulness of breathing and the ten kasinas.[2]
All of the aforementioned meditation subjects can suppress the Five Hindrances, thus allowing one to fruitfully pursue wisdom. In addition, anyone can productively apply specific meditation subjects as antidotes, such as meditating on foulness to counteract lust or on the breath to abandon discursive thought.
The Pali commentaries further provide guidelines for suggesting meditation subjects based on ones general temperament:
The six non-color kasinas and the four formless states are suitable for all temperaments.[2]
About mantras, what Buddha forbade is for using it for selfish, greedy purposes as I said. Anyway here's a brief history of Buddhist mantras:
Conze distinguishes three periods in the Buddhist use of mantra. Initially, like their fellow Indians, Buddhists used mantra as protective spells to ward of malign influences. Despite a Vinaya rule which forbids monks engaging in the Brahminical practice of chanting mantras for material gain, there are a number of protective for a group of ascetic monks. However, even at this early stage, there is perhaps something more than animistic magic at work. Particularly in the case of the Ratana Sutta the efficacy of the verses seems to be related to the concept of "truth". Each verse of the sutta ends with "by the virtue of this truth may there be happiness".
Later mantras were used more to guard the spiritual life of the chanter, and sections on mantras began to be included in some Mahayana sutras such as the White Lotus Sutra, and the Lankavatara Sutra. The scope of protection also changed in this time. In the Sutra of Golden Light the Four Great Kings promise to exercise sovereignty over the different classes of demigods, to protect the whole of Jambudvipa (the India sub continent), to protect monks who proclaim the sutra, and to protect kings who patronise the monks who proclaim the sutra. The apotheosis of this type of approach is the Nichiren school of Buddhism that was founded in 13th century Japan, and which distilled all Buddhist practice down to the veneration of the Lotus Sutra through recitation of the daimoku: "Nam myoho renge kyo" which translates as "Homage to the Lotus Sutra".
Then mantra began, in about the 7th century, to take centre stage and become a vehicle for salvation in their own right. Tantra started to gain momentum in the 6th and 7th century, with specifically Buddhist forms appearing as early as 300CE. Mantrayana was an early name for the what is now more commonly known as Vajrayana, which gives us a hint as to the place of mantra in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. The aim of Vajrayana practice is to give the practitioner a direct experience of reality, of things as they really are. Mantras function as symbols of that reality, and different mantras are different aspects of that reality -- for example wisdom or compassion. Mantras are almost always associated with a particular deity, with one exception being the Prajnaparamita mantra associated with the Heart Sutra. One of the key Vajrayana strategies for bringing about a direct experience of reality is to engage the entire psycho-physical organism in the practices. In one Buddhist analysis the person consists of body, speech and mind. So a typical sadhana or meditation practice might include mudras, or symbolic hand gestures, or even full body prostrations; the recitations of mantras; as well as the visualisation of celestial beings and visualising the letters of the mantra which is being recited. Clearly here mantra is associated with speech. The meditator may visualise the letters in front of themselves, or within their body. They may pronounced out loud, or internally in the mind only.
Originally posted by Rooney9:I particularly is confused on mantra. you mentioned is invocations, seem contrary to what the Buddha has taught.
In the Pali suttas, it's said that the devas will protect those who chant this and that paritta. So it's the same effect.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In the Pali suttas, it's said that the devas will protect those who chant this and that paritta. So it's the same effect.
I am also wondering how come theravada use parittas and not mantras? during the time of the buddha, there were no theravada nor mahayana.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In the Pali suttas, it's said that the devas will protect those who chant this and that paritta. So it's the same effect.
thats what was said by the Buddha.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't know whether chanting can lead to jhana, because I never practiced much chanting myself (though I did practice anapanasati and it was very effective for me).
However I am certain that Anapansati and contemplation of 32 parts is not the only way to enter jhana. Concentration on kasinas is just as popular and effective for that purpose.
"For the meditator to achieve the abhinnas, he should accomplish the eight kasinas in the direct order given in the texts, i.e. from the earth kasina through the white kasina, doing so even up to a thousand times in each one until he is fully adept at it. [2] Having mastered the direct order, the yogin should attain jhana in the kasinas in reverse order, moving from the white kasina back to the earth kasina. [3] He should next attain jhnaa again and again in forward and reverse order from the earth kasina to the white kasina and then back again."
etc...
Dear friend,
When I said "not all contemplations" can reach Jhanas, I was referring to the 10 contemplations. You raised the issue of chanting of Buddho, which I pointed out to be one of the contemplations (recollections). The highest one can go is access concentration (pre-jhana).
Yes, the kasinas are popular ways to attain Jhanas, but they really need to be supervised by qualified teachers with Jhanas too. The brahma vihara stations are popular too.
which one works for you? well you have to try them out under qualified masters. :P
Originally posted by soul2soul:Dear friend,
When I said "not all contemplations" can reach Jhanas, I was referring to the 10 contemplations. You raised the issue of chanting of Buddho, which I pointed out to be one of the contemplations (recollections). The highest one can go is access concentration (pre-jhana).
Yes, the kasinas are popular ways to attain Jhanas, but they really need to be supervised by qualified teachers with Jhanas too. The brahma vihara stations are popular too.
which one works for you? well you have to try them out under qualified masters. :P
Hi,
I have not received instructions for kasina or brahma vihara. I have received instructions for Anapanasati since I was about 13 or 14, some 5 years ago. It has worked very well for me. However I also practice some other methods now.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't know whether chanting can lead to jhana, because I never practiced much chanting myself (though I did practice anapanasati and it was very effective for me).
However I am certain that Anapansati and contemplation of 32 parts is not the only way to enter jhana. Concentration on kasinas is just as popular and effective for that purpose.
"For the meditator to achieve the abhinnas, he should accomplish the eight kasinas in the direct order given in the texts, i.e. from the earth kasina through the white kasina, doing so even up to a thousand times in each one until he is fully adept at it. [2] Having mastered the direct order, the yogin should attain jhana in the kasinas in reverse order, moving from the white kasina back to the earth kasina. [3] He should next attain jhnaa again and again in forward and reverse order from the earth kasina to the white kasina and then back again."
etc...
Pardon me for my ignorance and limited knowldege in dharma.
1) Just curious why dont u chant ?
2) I'm interested to learn about meditation , i can refer to information from the net but would prefer to hear it from a person who has experience in meditation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati_Sutta
How should i start ?
Originally posted by knightlll:
Pardon me for my ignorance and limited knowldege in dharma.1) Just curious why dont u chant ?
2) I'm interested to learn about meditation , i can refer to information from the net but would prefer to hear it from a person who has experience in meditation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati_Sutta
How should i start ?
1) Just curious why dont u chant ?
My personal preference. I practice what suits me better.
2) I'm interested to learn about meditation , i can refer to information from the net but would prefer to hear it from a person who has experience in meditation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati_Sutta
How should i start ?
First learn the proper meditation posture, sit in full lotus, half lotus or burmese posture, and just be aware of the sensations of breathing -- whether it is cold, hot, soft, solid, etc. Just fully sense the texture of the breathe without labeling or giving a thought. It's best to learn it from a meditation teacher.
Originally posted by knightlll:
Pardon me for my ignorance and limited knowldege in dharma.1) Just curious why dont u chant ?
2) I'm interested to learn about meditation , i can refer to information from the net but would prefer to hear it from a person who has experience in meditation.
How should i start ?
Dear friend,
Are there any meditation centres in Singapore that teach Vipassana and Samatha meditation? If there is, you may want to pay the centre a visit. Meditation needs a teacher, and certain fine points in meditation cannot be read from the books, but have to be passed down by teacher-student experience.
For example, when you encounter certain hindrance, you may need to refer it to your teacher to get some answers, something that books cannot provide you.
Hi Soul, where are you from?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi Soul, where are you from?
KL
Originally posted by soul2soul:KL
so are you theravada or mahayana buddhist?
Originally posted by Rooney9:so are you theravada or mahayana buddhist?
Theravada
Originally posted by soul2soul:Theravada
so what are the theravada temples in KL
soul, do you practice Pa Auk Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Goenka, or Thai?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi,
I have not received instructions for kasina or brahma vihara. I have received instructions for Anapanasati since I was about 13 or 14, some 5 years ago. It has worked very well for me. However I also practice some other methods now.
I was not instructed in Anapanasati, but many meditators like that method, especially those aiming for Jhanas.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:soul, do you practice Pa Auk Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Goenka, or Thai?
care to explain what are these?