Is God is kind enough to spare U from hell if not Christian?
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BroInChrist,
IF ONLY CHRISTIANS CAN GO TO HEAVEN, then that heaven is corrupted because an atheist who committed no murder goes to hell just because of his "lack of belief" but a christian who committed murder and confesses sincerely before death goes to heaven.
It's corrupted and biased.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I have a question:
What happened to Jesus Christ in his "missing years" ?
Another loophole highlighted. Thanks.
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So what's the Christian perspective of afterlife ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So what's the Christian perspective of afterlife ?
Most christians in Singapore believe that only they themselves can go heaven. They believe all nonchristians will go to hell.
But there is a small number of christians in Singapore who believe that nonchristians can go heaven.
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If I read correctly, according to buddhism, there are many buddha-lands or "heavens"....can it be that Jesus Christ (As a buddha/boddhisattva) has his own heaven too ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
If I read correctly, according to buddhism, there are many buddha-lands or "heavens"....can it be that Jesus Christ (As a buddha/boddhisattva) has his own heaven too ?
If your form of Buddhims is the Buddhism that views Buddha as a "supernatural deity" or as "divine", then I dont agree with you.
Because there are other forms of Buddhism that see Buddha as a human and with no supernatural or divine teachings.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
If your form of Buddhims is the Buddhism that views Buddha as a "supernatural deity" or as "divine", then I dont agree with you.
Because there are other forms of Buddhism that see Buddha as a human and with no supernatural or divine teachings.
I dunno....I believe Buddha was a human with wonderful teachings that can lead people out of suffering and into happiness....
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Originally posted by Rooney_07:
I still cant believe in this day and age, still got people blindly believe this kind of dope, where science can explain to layman in literature, the bible is unable to for the past 2 millenniums.
what good news lol.does it dawn on you that what if there is no god. ok some say they rather believe in it as they have nothing to lose, is like an insurance thingy to me. you believe in it just in case there is a god. well anyway I have no problem you believe in this dope, but just make sure you do not become an extremist or fundamentalist and start going around proselytizing to non believers you are going to hell. anway my stand is this, it says much about the religion when you have to resort this way to recruit people.
Rooney,
Yes, science can explain to us many things in nature. But again please note that it was the Christian worldview that gave us modern science. Science is always playing catching up with the Bible. It was Jastrow who said the following words (from Wiki)
"Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world....the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same. Consider the enormousness of the problem : Science has proved that the universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks: 'What cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter or energy into the universe?' And science cannot answer these questions. "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."No, it does not dawn on me that there is no God. If there is no God, then nothing can be known about anything at all. The universe has a beginning and beg a cause. The Christian holds that God is that cause, and this is a most logical and reasonable conclusion. The atheist holds that the universe made itself from nothing. But from nothing nothing comes, so how is your worldview a reasonable one?You talk about Pascal's Wager but seem not to know the intent and purpose of that line of apologetic, so I shall leave it at that. And why should telling others about my faith be an act of extremism? If so, then the Singapore Constitution is guilty of extremism since Article 15 (if I am not wrong) allows for that. Are you going to take this position? Hopefully not!Yes, the Bible teaches that there is a hell to avoid. Unpleasant? Sure it is. But this no more makes hell unreal just as prison is a real and unpleasant place to avoid going. We don't like the prospects of hell because we don't like punishment or judgement from God. Christianity does not gloss over the unpleasant parts. In fact, the Bible tells us to preach so that we can snatch souls from hell. Why do you suppose that Christians everywhere enjoy talking about hell? Truth is, we don't. There is a good reason why many Christians refrain from sharing their faith and prefer to engage in "lifestyle evangelism" because it is easier since it requires one to say nothing. It is not nice to tell people that nice people go to hell, but the Bible does not teach that nice people go to heaven. Being nice never qualify one for heaven. Being forgiven of our sins and being saved in Christ does.Again if you do not like what the Bible teaches, then please exercise the tolerance that the government talks about and just let it be. If someone approaches you with the good news, just politely say "not interested" and move on. -
Originally posted by Rooney_07:
there there there.....even a criminal can ascend to heaven, no wonder heaven is a place of criminals. I will not be surprised if there are people like hitler and hardcore criminals in heaven. doesnt it dawn on you that, what makes you think the criminal would not create havoc in heaven? do you think he will be reformed? oh god will reboot his system and convert him from criminal to an angel once he is in heaven
Rooney,
Yes, isn't it the amazing grace of God that even the most penitent criminal who repents can be forgiven and accepted into God's heaven? Such is the love of God for sinful men! Yes, I will not be surprised that in heaven there will be many surprises when it comes to who I will see in heaven.
Why should I entertain the thought that the criminal will wreak havoc in heaven? Does the Bible speak of that? Where? Not anywhere. In fact the book of Revelation tells us that there will be no more curse or evil as the devil and his followers will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever. There will be an eternity of heavenly bliss.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Rooney,
Yes, science can explain to us many things in nature. But again please note that it was the Christian worldview that gave us modern science. Science is always playing catching up with the Bible. It was Jastrow who said the following words (from Wiki)
"Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world....the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same. Consider the enormousness of the problem : Science has proved that the universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks: 'What cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter or energy into the universe?' And science cannot answer these questions. "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."No, it does not dawn on me that there is no God. If there is no God, then nothing can be known about anything at all. The universe has a beginning and beg a cause. The Christian holds that God is that cause, and this is a most logical and reasonable conclusion. The atheist holds that the universe made itself from nothing. But from nothing nothing comes, so how is your worldview a reasonable one?You talk about Pascal's Wager but seem not to know the intent and purpose of that line of apologetic, so I shall leave it at that. And why should telling others about my faith be an act of extremism? If so, then the Singapore Constitution is guilty of extremism since Article 15 (if I am not wrong) allows for that. Are you going to take this position? Hopefully not!Yes, the Bible teaches that there is a hell to avoid. Unpleasant? Sure it is. But this no more makes hell unreal just as prison is a real and unpleasant place to avoid going. We don't like the prospects of hell because we don't like punishment or judgement from God. Christianity does not gloss over the unpleasant parts. In fact, the Bible tells us to preach so that we can snatch souls from hell. Why do you suppose that Christians everywhere enjoy talking about hell? Truth is, we don't. There is a good reason why many Christians refrain from sharing their faith and prefer to engage in "lifestyle evangelism" because it is easier since it requires one to say nothing. It is not nice to tell people that nice people go to hell, but the Bible does not teach that nice people go to heaven. Being nice never qualify one for heaven. Being forgiven of our sins and being saved in Christ does.Again if you do not like what the Bible teaches, then please exercise the tolerance that the government talks about and just let it be. If someone approaches you with the good news, just politely say "not interested" and move on.I think its christianity always catching up with science....
1. Bible says bats are birds. Now christians dont believe that because science revealed bats are mammals.
2. Bible says mustard seeds are smallest seed. science revealed thats not true.
3. Bible says the earth is flat and "circle". Science revealed it is a sphere.
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Originally posted by Rooney_07:
so you only care for being in heaven for eternity when you die more than anything else. you are just like buying insurance just in case. I am not sure if this is more than wishful thinking on your part, because it just doesnt make sense since xtianity doesnt believe in rebirth or reincarnation, just one of the many paradox.
when you die, this should be it, no more reborn in heaven or hell for eternity isnt it. this is clearly a big loop hole you are unable to think for yourself.
Rooney,
Why are you so extreme in your thinking? I said that we should give much thought about our eternal state, and you conclude that I ONLY care for being in heaven? And why should it be wishful thinking on my part instead of ignorance on your own. The use of the term afterlife is not banned in Christianity as far as I know.
You said it should be it after we die. How you know? Who's your authority to say this? Why should we believe you? On what basis do you conclude that only your "this life is all there is and after that no more" is based on any sound reasoning? It's just your own belief about what comes after death. There is no law of logic that you can appeal to that would prove your view about what comes after death.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist
Some christians quote the bible to justify that baptism is required for salvation.
Some christians quote the bible to justfy that baptism isn't required for salvation.
Seriously tell me. Why are christians always arguing about such things?
Tcmc,
There is always room for healthy debate within Christianity. I am glad that there are people who take the Bible seriously, but then come to different conclusions and choose to debate with each other, rather than demonise each other (which some sadly do). Put it this simply way, whether baptism is required for salvation or not, the Bible commands it. So just do it lah! Unless you are hanging on a cross, or the whole land is in drought, and water is now being hoarded and too precious, I don't see why a genuine believer cannot be baptised, or would refuse to be baptise.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. I didnt say the universe is eternal. It could be destroyed one day. But my point was - Just because we dont know doest mean we have to be lazy and ascribe it to some creator.
2. Yes I dont believe in any gods. But I am challenging your narrow beliefs in one god. You claim your ONLY your god exists. So I am asking you why not the other gods? Your only so-called evidence is your scriptures. Well, any religion can also use their scriptures to prove their gods! NO DIFFERENCE!
3. Oh so you mean your god didnt know of the word "mammals" 4000 years ago? Couldnt he have "inspired" the writer to write mammals? I doubt hes allknowing then. Seems like he also didnt know that the mustard seed isnt the smallest seed
Tcmc,
I think you DID say that the universe could be eternal, since why it must be God. But I understand if you choose to take it back, since you wouldn't want to be seen as anti-scientific. And why do you say it is laziness to believe that God is Creator? On what basis? This is just an ad hominem attack.
You don't believe in any God and yet call me narrow minded for believing in one God? This is absurd. Why not I call you close minded and ask why you don't even believe in the possibility of one God? Since you don't even believe in one God, why try to create an issue for me to debate about many gods? So you can watch by the sidelines and eat popcorn? Seriously are you playing the troll here? Because I am really beginning to think you are.
It is clear that you have little knowledge about what the doctrine of inspiration is all about. So you think God should just dump all His omniscient knowledge on shepherds and ordinary folks and make them write in modern terminology because you the atheist have a problem? Why should the Lord of the earth pander to your petty whims and fancies?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I have a question:
What happened to Jesus Christ in his "missing years" ?
Demon Bane,
There are no missing years of Jesus. It was silent. Unrecorded that's all. No warrant to infer or speculate that Jesus went to India or what not. But Scriptures did give us some hints. If you read the Gospels you would note that those who knew Jesus said "Isn't he the son of Joseph the carpenter?", "Aren't these His brothers?" etc etc. Or that He came from Nazareth, or perhaps it should meant that He grew up in Nazareth.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Rooney, you are confused with the term afterlife. Since when is that term restricted to mean either rebirth or reincarnation? I understand that term to simply means the state that comes after death, the continued existence of the soul/spirit if man.
if that is not definition for reincarnation or rebirth, I dunno what is
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BroInChrist,
IF ONLY CHRISTIANS CAN GO TO HEAVEN, then that heaven is corrupted because an atheist who committed no murder goes to hell just because of his "lack of belief" but a christian who committed murder and confesses sincerely before death goes to heaven.
It's corrupted and biased.
Tcmc,
Heaven is filled with sinners who have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus. God's heaven is to be entered upon meeting God's condition for entry. And the requirement is simple, repent of your sins, believe upon Jesus and you shall be saved. Heaven is not being refused to you. Is it so difficult to repent of your sins? Why don't you want to repent of your sins and be saved?
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Originally posted by Rooney_07:
if that is not definition for reincarnation or rebirth, I dunno what is
It's not. Afterlife is NOT the definition for reincarnation or rebirth. Wiki says
The afterlife (also referred to as life after death, the Hereafter, the Next World, or the Other Side) is the belief that a part of, or essence of, or soul of an individual, which carries with it and confers personal identity, survives the death of the body of this world and this lifetime, by natural or supernatural means, in contrast to the belief in eternal oblivion after death. In some popular views, this continued existence often takes place in a spiritual realm, and in other popular views, the individual may be reborn into this world and begin the life cycle over again. In this latter view, such rebirths and deaths may take place over and over again continuously until the individual gains entry to a spiritual realm.
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
So what's the Christian perspective of afterlife ?
Demon Bane,
The Bible teaches in Hebrews that it is appointed for man to die once and after that to face judgement. This would effectively negate the view that man will be reborn or reincarnated to die again and again. You live once and die once. But there's a saying I like which you can ponder over.
Born once, die twice. Born Twice, die once.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Most christians in Singapore believe that only they themselves can go heaven. They believe all nonchristians will go to hell.
But there is a small number of christians in Singapore who believe that nonchristians can go heaven.
Tcmc,
Some even believe that ALL will go to heaven! That's universalism for you, but it is utterly bereft of Biblical support.
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Demon Bane,
If you read the Bible you will not find any hint of Buddhism at all.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
If you read the Bible you will not find any hint of Buddhism at all.
Not quite true....Have u read any buddhists' scriptures and sutras? If u did, you would had found many similarities....
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
The Bible teaches in Hebrews that it is appointed for man to die once and after that to face judgement. This would effectively negate the view that man will be reborn or reincarnated to die again and again. You live once and die once. But there's a saying I like which you can ponder over.
Born once, die twice. Born Twice, die once.
How do you explain the holy monks from Tibet who came back many times as human beings? Aren't those proofs of reincarnation ?
How about people whom had recollection of their previous lives?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
I think you DID say that the universe could be eternal, since why it must be God. But I understand if you choose to take it back, since you wouldn't want to be seen as anti-scientific. And why do you say it is laziness to believe that God is Creator? On what basis? This is just an ad hominem attack.
You don't believe in any God and yet call me narrow minded for believing in one God? This is absurd. Why not I call you close minded and ask why you don't even believe in the possibility of one God? Since you don't even believe in one God, why try to create an issue for me to debate about many gods? So you can watch by the sidelines and eat popcorn? Seriously are you playing the troll here? Because I am really beginning to think you are.
It is clear that you have little knowledge about what the doctrine of inspiration is all about. So you think God should just dump all His omniscient knowledge on shepherds and ordinary folks and make them write in modern terminology because you the atheist have a problem? Why should the Lord of the earth pander to your petty whims and fancies?
BroInChrist
But there are so many "healthy debates" among christians. I personally have been to quite a number of churches when I was a christian and heard many christians "argue" or "demonise" each other about doctrines, beliefs etc. Below is a list --
method of salvation, megachurches, validity once saved always saved doctrine, validity of prosperity gospel, christian rock music, compulsory tithing, version of bible to use, nature of jesus, nature of heaven and hell, levels of heaven and hell, salvation process, salvation of nonchristians, interpretation of verses, number of books in bible, what is considered sinful, predestination, concept of trinity, tribulation stages, women preachers, baptism for salvation, tongues, healings, miracles, etc.
Never once had I hear 2 christians agree on the same belief/doctrine.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
I think you DID say that the universe could be eternal, since why it must be God. But I understand if you choose to take it back, since you wouldn't want to be seen as anti-scientific. And why do you say it is laziness to believe that God is Creator? On what basis? This is just an ad hominem attack.
You don't believe in any God and yet call me narrow minded for believing in one God? This is absurd. Why not I call you close minded and ask why you don't even believe in the possibility of one God? Since you don't even believe in one God, why try to create an issue for me to debate about many gods? So you can watch by the sidelines and eat popcorn? Seriously are you playing the troll here? Because I am really beginning to think you are.
It is clear that you have little knowledge about what the doctrine of inspiration is all about. So you think God should just dump all His omniscient knowledge on shepherds and ordinary folks and make them write in modern terminology because you the atheist have a problem? Why should the Lord of the earth pander to your petty whims and fancies?
BroInChrist,
1. I did not say it could be eternal. Eternal means it cannot be destroyed. Why would I say that? Its common sense that the universe isnt eternal. Thats not the main point. The main point is HOW YOU attribute the universe to a creator just because it's complex. Huh? Where's the link? Must everything complex have a creator? Who says thaT?
2. You are narrowminded because you only consider your god true and the rest of the gods untrue when you havent even studied, explored other religions. Yes I dont believe in the existence of any gods, but I am OPEN to believing in any of the gods if there is empirical evidence one day. I know I could be wrong one day, if evidence shows up. How about you then? Do you think you could be wrong about your god? Are you open to the idea of the existence of other gods? I am, if evidence shows up. Are you?
3. You have lots of excuses for the errors in the bible. Oh there's a reason why god didnt call bats mammals. Oh theres a reason why god said the mustard seed was the smallest, even though it isn't, Oh theres a reason why there are numerical errors in 2 different books talking about the same thing. Oh there's a reason why the bible says jesus is god and also say jesus isn't god. Oh theres a reason why donkeys can talk, even though this is absurd. Oh there's a reason why a magic fruit can destroy people's lives. Oh there's a reason why the bible says god doesnt lie but then so many verses showed that he lied. You know, you can always find tons of excuses, because you will say at the end of the day that "god is mysterious". Convenient huh?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Demon Bane,
The Bible teaches in Hebrews that it is appointed for man to die once and after that to face judgement. This would effectively negate the view that man will be reborn or reincarnated to die again and again. You live once and die once. But there's a saying I like which you can ponder over.
Born once, die twice. Born Twice, die once.
BroInChrist,
It's funny how you use the bible like it's universal fact and like everyone should believe in it... Lol. How would you feel if for every question you ask, someone quotes you Hindu/Sikh scriptures like you should believe in it?