Daimler delivers largest Asian Citaro order to date (Part 3)
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Registered on 20 March 2013:
SBS6639U
SBS6641L
SBS6642J -
[Mercedes Benz Citaro - Evobus] SMB136C arriving Harbour Front Interchange with cleaned up axles and new rims for the offside and nearside, except that the front nearside rim is from an OC500LE (painted white, now greyish-white).
Info from BIS number one page on Singapore Buses~
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Originally posted by SBS9C:
I like the engine condition of the new Citaros. Sadly it is still using Voith gearbox, and since the drivers like to floor the accelerator, it is bad for the engine.
Err. Just try taking the same Citaros a few months down the road. The engine condition would be as atrocious / good as the current ones already on the roads elsewhere, depending on which ones you sit. haha.
And as for the gearbox, the BCs simply have no choice uh. If they leave it to the normal acceleration pace, the Voiths tend to be awfully slow. Even worse than the Mk3s if you know what I mean. And the so-called 'sweet spot' for the turbo boost comes in from the 2nd gear onwards. The 1st gear doesn't do much to the speed even if you hear the turbo boost coming on.
The downside of the Voiths is that there's not much engine braking if the BC just brakes suddenly, you can go from 60kmh to standstill without hearing the Voith downshift at all. The ZF ones (SMRT) do downshift in the same context.
But at least the Voiths don't keep the turbo spooling forever, helps to prolong the life of the turbo? The turbo only kicks in according to the gears. The ZF ones, you can hear the turbo forever no matter which speed you're at. (From my own observations)
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I don't get why people are complaining that the Citaro engines. They seem perfectly fine and much much smoother than any other bus out there. The older engines might need some turbo to aid it along, but once past 2nd gear and at higher revs, it accelerates like none other. Too bad that the SBS ones are coupled to a slow Voith gearbox and the SMRT ones are coupled to a 6-speed which is too many gear changes for urban operations. If only they had 5-speed Allison gearboxes. I don't know what's with all the hate for this fantastic bus, maybe it's that clone guy that has caused all these but I genuinely believe that the Citaro is the best purchase ever made by both PTCs because of the supreme build quality of Germany. Even the oldest SBS Citaro has no loose rattling bits unlike many of the Wrights with squeaking and rattling exit doors. Even if parts are loose, they make the tiniest of sounds. The suspension is nothing short of superb, making the bus glide over any bumps without annoying passengers. Now compare that to the Strider/DM B10Ms, which are stable but uncomfortable and jerk when stopping because of the simultaneous gearbox shifting. Okay, the aircon on the Citaros are quite weak but other than that, they are genuinely nice buses. The colour scheme on the SBS Citaros are so much better than those on KUBs and Wrights. Honestly, all my Citaro rides have been really good. The only other gripe is that some Citaros at full throttle have this annoying engine cover (that's what I assume) sound at high revs. Just my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
I don’t get why people are complaining that the Citaro engines. They seem perfectly fine and much much smoother than any other bus out there. The older engines might need some turbo to aid it along, but once past 2nd gear and at higher revs, it accelerates like none other. Too bad that the SBS ones are coupled to a slow Voith gearbox and the SMRT ones are coupled to a 6-speed which is too many gear changes for urban operations. If only they had 5-speed Allison gearboxes.
I don’t know what’s with all the hate for this fantastic bus, maybe it’s that clone guy that has caused all these but I genuinely believe that the Citaro is the best purchase ever made by both PTCs because of the supreme build quality of Germany. Even the oldest SBS Citaro has no loose rattling bits unlike many of the Wrights with squeaking and rattling exit doors. Even if parts are loose, they make the tiniest of sounds. The suspension is nothing short of superb, making the bus glide over any bumps without annoying passengers. Now compare that to the Strider/DM B10Ms, which are stable but uncomfortable and jerk when stopping because of the simultaneous gearbox shifting. Okay, the aircon on the Citaros are quite weak but other than that, they are genuinely nice buses. The colour scheme on the SBS Citaros are so much better than those on KUBs and Wrights.
Honestly, all my Citaro rides have been really good. The only other gripe is that some Citaros at full throttle have this annoying engine cover (that’s what I assume) sound at high revs.
Just my 2 cents.
I don't find the problem with the engine actually, but if you know of anyone who sits at the front of the Citaros, you will know why. Usually I will sit at the front for my convenience. The front seats will suddenly turn hot after a while of siting, most probably due to some sort of engine that generates heat under the front seat. This is one of the points that makes us feel that Citaros are uncomfortable apart from those you stated above.
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Actually I happen to know of someone who sits, or at least have sat at the front.
Seriously.
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Originally posted by Gus.chong:
I don't find the problem with the engine actually, but if you know of anyone who sits at the front of the Citaros, you will know why. Usually I will sit at the front for my convenience. The front seats will suddenly turn hot after a while of siting, most probably due to some sort of engine that generates heat under the front seat. This is one of the points that makes us feel that Citaros are uncomfortable apart from those you stated above.
Aren't those just the brakes? Since it was stated engine braking isn't that strong on Voiths. -
Originally posted by nfshp253:
Aren't those just the brakes? Since it was stated engine braking isn't that strong on Voiths.I am not that experienced in machinery so I can't give you an answer. The only thing that I can describe is the wooden thing where the cushion is fitted on, it feels warm when you touch it. That thing also makes me feel that the cushion is also heated.
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SBS6636C to HGDEP, on 163 today.
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
I don’t get why people are complaining that the Citaro engines. They seem perfectly fine and much much smoother than any other bus out there. The older engines might need some turbo to aid it along, but once past 2nd gear and at higher revs, it accelerates like none other. Too bad that the SBS ones are coupled to a slow Voith gearbox and the SMRT ones are coupled to a 6-speed which is too many gear changes for urban operations. If only they had 5-speed Allison gearboxes.
I don’t know what’s with all the hate for this fantastic bus, maybe it’s that clone guy that has caused all these but I genuinely believe that the Citaro is the best purchase ever made by both PTCs because of the supreme build quality of Germany. Even the oldest SBS Citaro has no loose rattling bits unlike many of the Wrights with squeaking and rattling exit doors. Even if parts are loose, they make the tiniest of sounds. The suspension is nothing short of superb, making the bus glide over any bumps without annoying passengers. Now compare that to the Strider/DM B10Ms, which are stable but uncomfortable and jerk when stopping because of the simultaneous gearbox shifting. Okay, the aircon on the Citaros are quite weak but other than that, they are genuinely nice buses. The colour scheme on the SBS Citaros are so much better than those on KUBs and Wrights.
Honestly, all my Citaro rides have been really good. The only other gripe is that some Citaros at full throttle have this annoying engine cover (that’s what I assume) sound at high revs.
Just my 2 cents.
Proof that Citaros are the best buses[in]gapore so SBST and SMRT time to buy new Citaro C2 and Citaro G C2~ -
SBS6644D to BNDEP/SLBP today, on Service 66.
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
I don’t get why people are complaining that the Citaro engines. They seem perfectly fine and much much smoother than any other bus out there. The older engines might need some turbo to aid it along, but once past 2nd gear and at higher revs, it accelerates like none other. Too bad that the SBS ones are coupled to a slow Voith gearbox and the SMRT ones are coupled to a 6-speed which is too many gear changes for urban operations. If only they had 5-speed Allison gearboxes.
I don’t know what’s with all the hate for this fantastic bus, maybe it’s that clone guy that has caused all these but I genuinely believe that the Citaro is the best purchase ever made by both PTCs because of the supreme build quality of Germany. Even the oldest SBS Citaro has no loose rattling bits unlike many of the Wrights with squeaking and rattling exit doors. Even if parts are loose, they make the tiniest of sounds. The suspension is nothing short of superb, making the bus glide over any bumps without annoying passengers. Now compare that to the Strider/DM B10Ms, which are stable but uncomfortable and jerk when stopping because of the simultaneous gearbox shifting. Okay, the aircon on the Citaros are quite weak but other than that, they are genuinely nice buses. The colour scheme on the SBS Citaros are so much better than those on KUBs and Wrights.
Honestly, all my Citaro rides have been really good. The only other gripe is that some Citaros at full throttle have this annoying engine cover (that’s what I assume) sound at high revs.
Just my 2 cents.
To be honest, Citaro are still alright. But the bus isn't really suitable for Singapore(with the interior design, especially aircon). I guess if they change the interior aircon system design to MAN's one, it would be much better. But the Citaro's air-con can be quite cooling sometimes.
Comparing both SBST and SMRT, they are about the same. I managed to feel the cooling breeze when the rear door opens(for both SBST one and SMRT, WLDEP Citaro).
But Citaro do really made me dizzy with the hot interior when the bus is full(both SBST and SMRT). The feeling was bad though.
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Originally posted by SMB66X:
To be honest, Citaro are still alright. But the bus isn't really suitable for Singapore(with the interior design, especially aircon). I guess if they change the interior aircon system design to MAN's one, it would be much better. But the Citaro's air-con can be quite cooling sometimes.
Comparing both SBST and SMRT, they are about the same. I managed to feel the cooling breeze when the rear door opens(for both SBST one and SMRT, WLDEP Citaro).
But Citaro do really made me dizzy with the hot interior when the bus is full(both SBST and SMRT). The feeling was bad though.
I agree that the aircon is the biggest problem with the Citaro. It's not strong or cool enough, but I like the design of the vents being non-adjustable so that annoying commuters won't stick tissue paper into the eyeball sockets and aircon is not wasted through sockets that are blowing to only cool the enclosure and not the bus cabin. What I don't get is why many like you feel that the interior is unsuitable. It's low floor and has more seats than a KUB. There might be some steps around but this is inevitable for low floor buses and will be a standard design for any manufacturer. It's a necessary compromise. -
SBS 6638Y > HG ? ON SVC 156A today !
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SBS 6640P TO HGDEP ON SVC 325 today !
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
I agree that the aircon is the biggest problem with the Citaro. It's not strong or cool enough, but I like the design of the vents being non-adjustable so that annoying commuters won't stick tissue paper into the eyeball sockets and aircon is not wasted through sockets that are blowing to only cool the enclosure and not the bus cabin. What I don't get is why many like you feel that the interior is unsuitable. It's low floor and has more seats than a KUB. There might be some steps around but this is inevitable for low floor buses and will be a standard design for any manufacturer. It's a necessary compromise.One more problem with the Citaros might be the acceleration. Generally, Citaros do not have good pickup speed, but yes, after the 2nd or 3rd gear, they can go pretty fast already. Worse, SBST down-tunes their Citaros, making the acceleration much, much weaker. The SBST ones also seem to be struggling a lot at 60km/h and the aircon system, well... it's powerful but very noisy and I think it's due to overworking of the bus again
...The SMRT ones on the other hand don't seem to be struggling to accelerate or working too hard at 60km/h though, that's because SMRT did not down tune these buses.
One more problem might be due to the Citaros using Voith DIWA D854.5 gearboxes. Voith gearboxes usually have weaker acceleration and top speed than ZF or Allison gearboxes. This problem also occured in the MK3s as in, they struggled to accelerate but are fine after the 2nd gear, but the acceleration wasn't as weak as the Citaros. I would prefer if they used ZF Ecomat 6HP 592C or ZF Ecolife gearboxes instead. The Voiths can be reserved for the buses with higher torque power.
Lastly, the aisle is quite squeezy and narrow, thus people refused to move in...
... They shouldn't be deployed on high demand services but rather low demand services like 123, 272, 273, 275, 408 etc. Plus the Citaros' brakes aren't really that effective... People also don't find the Citaro seats comfortable due to the lack of cushion...But other than that, I think they are great buses
, don't you just love the feel of a Citaro on the expressway??? Or maybe riding a Citaro driving through the rain, haha!!! -
SBS 6640P to HGDEP,on service 325 today
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Originally posted by Gus.chong:
I don't find the problem with the engine actually, but if you know of anyone who sits at the front of the Citaros, you will know why. Usually I will sit at the front for my convenience. The front seats will suddenly turn hot after a while of siting, most probably due to some sort of engine that generates heat under the front seat. This is one of the points that makes us feel that Citaros are uncomfortable apart from those you stated above.
Me too,i also have the same experience, the seat gets hot when sat for a long time,I think scanias are much more better although it has vibration,i still prefer scanias because the aircon is much more better and colder unlike citaros and the seats are good and comfortable to sit,I do not know why SBS Transit bought citaros in the first place,haiz,so sad
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Originally posted by TIB 501 D:
One more problem with the Citaros might be the acceleration. Generally, Citaros do not have good pickup speed, but yes, after the 2nd or 3rd gear, they can go pretty fast already. Worse, SBST down-tunes their Citaros, making the acceleration much, much weaker. The SBST ones also seem to be struggling a lot at 60km/h and the aircon system, well... it's powerful but very noisy and I think it's due to overworking of the bus again
...The SMRT ones on the other hand don't seem to be struggling to accelerate or working too hard at 60km/h though, that's because SMRT did not down tune these buses.
One more problem might be due to the Citaros using Voith DIWA D854.5 gearboxes. Voith gearboxes usually have weaker acceleration and top speed than ZF or Allison gearboxes. This problem also occured in the MK3s as in, they struggled to accelerate but are fine after the 2nd gear, but the acceleration wasn't as weak as the Citaros. I would prefer if they used ZF Ecomat 6HP 592C or ZF Ecolife gearboxes instead. The Voiths can be reserved for the buses with higher torque power.
Lastly, the aisle is quite squeezy and narrow, thus people refused to move in...
... They shouldn't be deployed on high demand
services but rather low demand services like 123, 272, 273, 275,
408 etc. Plus the Citaros' brakes aren't really that effective...
People also don't find the Citaro seats comfortable due to the lack
of cushion...But other than that, I think they are great buses
,
don't you just love the feel of a Citaro on the expressway??? Or
maybe riding a Citaro driving through the rain, haha!!!
Did SBST really down tune the engine? How many BHP does it have then? If it's true, that's just silly, like buying underpowered KUBs which tend to shift way too early. The braking only feels weak because of the lack of sharp action from the disc brakes like on the KUBs. Instead Citaros like many European configured buses make heavy use of the retarder, and on the Batch 2 Citaros, the engine brake instead of the disc brakes to reduce brake wear. The disc brakes are hence less powerful. Regarding the design of the aisle, nothing can be done on a low floor bus. The wheel arches must be there and the aisle is as wide as on B10Ms. It's just that the smaller area compared to the standee area in the middle gives the illusion that it is extremely narrow. It's narrow, but still acceptable. It's more of a commuter problem refusing to move in, just like how close to no one moves up the steps on a KUB to stand. That's why I've always been saying LTA should ask the PTCs to buy 3-door buses to encourage commuters to move in. -
Originally posted by nfshp253:
Did SBST really down tune the engine? How many BHP does it have then? If it's true, that's just silly, like buying underpowered KUBs which tend to shift way too early. The braking only feels weak because of the lack of sharp action from the disc brakes like on the KUBs. Instead Citaros like many European configured buses make heavy use of the retarder, and on the Batch 2 Citaros, the engine brake instead of the disc brakes to reduce brake wear. The disc brakes are hence less powerful. Regarding the design of the aisle, nothing can be done on a low floor bus. The wheel arches must be there and the aisle is as wide as on B10Ms. It's just that the smaller area compared to the standee area in the middle gives the illusion that it is extremely narrow. It's narrow, but still acceptable. It's more of a commuter problem refusing to move in, just like how close to no one moves up the steps on a KUB to stand. That's why I've always been saying LTA should ask the PTCs to buy 3-door buses to encourage commuters to move in.Idk how many bhp. But I can tell you
It has 286PS, approx 282hp
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
Did SBST really down tune the engine? How many BHP does it have then? If it's true, that's just silly, like buying underpowered KUBs which tend to shift way too early. The braking only feels weak because of the lack of sharp action from the disc brakes like on the KUBs. Instead Citaros like many European configured buses make heavy use of the retarder, and on the Batch 2 Citaros, the engine brake instead of the disc brakes to reduce brake wear. The disc brakes are hence less powerful. Regarding the design of the aisle, nothing can be done on a low floor bus. The wheel arches must be there and the aisle is as wide as on B10Ms. It's just that the smaller area compared to the standee area in the middle gives the illusion that it is extremely narrow. It's narrow, but still acceptable. It's more of a commuter problem refusing to move in, just like how close to no one moves up the steps on a KUB to stand. That's why I've always been saying LTA should ask the PTCs to buy 3-door buses to encourage commuters to move in.I chatted with a driver before, he said that SBS Transit limits the rev to a certain amount to prevent rapid acceleration, unlike SMRT Buses. That is why SBS buses seem to have slow pickup despite the power of the engine. Furthermore he said that the limiter that SBS uses isn't very good, hence making the buses jerky at times (esp Scania).
I kinda wonder, is there a good limiter that makes the ride as smooth as non-limited buses since the limiter that SBS uses is not very good? Though I prefer only the max speed to be limited.
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From what I understand the HP is not restricted but the revs. That explains why some drivers when flooring the throttle on Citaros hit some sort of rev limiter and have to lift off and let the gearbox change before flooring it again in another gear. I think this is ruining the gearbox in the long run since sometimes it kicks down but changes immediately back to a higher gear because of the limiter. But Citaros surely have more than 230HP since at full throttle it's much faster than KUBs at full throttle. Must say that I like the turbo whistle of the KUBs that are rarely heard.
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
I agree that the aircon is the biggest problem with the Citaro. It's not strong or cool enough, but I like the design of the vents being non-adjustable so that annoying commuters won't stick tissue paper into the eyeball sockets and aircon is not wasted through sockets that are blowing to only cool the enclosure and not the bus cabin. What I don't get is why many like you feel that the interior is unsuitable. It's low floor and has more seats than a KUB. There might be some steps around but this is inevitable for low floor buses and will be a standard design for any manufacturer. It's a necessary compromise.When it's low floor, the rear became narrow. To be honest, it's seriously uncomfortable if people were to move in and out. Anyway, regardless of how the aircon vents is, passengers can still stick stuff on it.
Ever seen 1 Citaro with some small tissues at the hole.. -
6646 to SLBP
on 333 today
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For me I have no issues with the Citaros at all... except for the pick up (or lack thereof). It has to rev really high to have good pick up, which is a waste of fuel, makes gearshifts rough and jerky, though I can't expect much from a 6400cc engine on a citybus.... there's no replacement for displacement (compare the Citaro's pick up to say an O405 here)