Accepting more immigrants will not solve the ageing problem
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By accepting adults immigrants will increase the ageing population only. Unless they are accepting babies.
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So far I think the problem is offering PR to those who have $20m assets and above because they are welcome thru-out the whole world and would never pick spore as a place to settle down. They should not be allowed to buy properties when they do not reside here. Instead, they must operate businesses here or work here full-time then they are given PRs. Businesses also preferably limited to serving outside spore - otherwise, they must be offering outstanding products and/services better than what are being offered in spore.
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i don't really see the ''ageing problem''as a problem.
Singapore IS a small peice of land.We already have too many people as it is.Accepting people for the sake of sustaining population growth is counter productive.You can't improve the economy without having the space to do so.
Sure,there will be more elderly in sg for a period of time,but its not the end of the world. its just a natural process.Kind of wierd that something as something as basic as this will be simply ignored.
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Can't go on forever. Will just have more old people to support in future. Think we're daft?
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People growing old and die is not a problem but the problem starts when the old not dying.
Root of the problem is either growing old and/or not dying.Currently, the old and not dying are from the generation where they where encouraged to have less children and penalized when they have more than 2. That generation prospered and contributed to what Singapore is today. They deserved to either grow old with dignity and/or die with dignity.
Its becoming a common sight to see old folks working as janitors, cleaners, wandering tissue paper sellers. Its arguable that they have dignity, but would anyone treat them as people WITH dignity? A lot of times they became convenient target for negative examples. An elderly karang kuni has more dignity.
Its sad when there's someone living alone dies in their flat. And its much sadder when the discovery of the truth was initiated by a complain of annoyance. Perhaps they chose such demise, not wanting to pollute the water source or causing trauma by leaving a bloody mess. There should be more options open to them to make better decisions.
Singapore boasts of the volume and the growth of their sovereign funds. Probably cash rich as well as indicated by the defense of dipping into the reserve funds. Singapore had succeeded in projecting itself as a land of prosperity and growth, globally. It still is according the GDP readings and will strive to continue so. To do so will require manpower, creative and inventive minds to chart into the global economy. Just as every resource Singapore requires when unavailable locally, Singapore imports as required.
Being living entities, Singapore treats the new immigrants with care. Adopting those that are ready to sink their roots here and proved to be productive as new citizens. They will grow old and probably die like the aging population now.
By the time this generation of new citizens and locals grows old, their size would be at least three times[citations needed] the current aging population, depending on the effectiveness of the birth control policies. The problem of aging will still be growing old and/or not die. The only difference is the current generation will probably not have the priveledge to grow old and die with dignity than the current aging generation should deserve.
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We need to grow GDP at all cost.
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Really so difficult for you guys to see the problem of a shrinking population? Just look at Japan, economy has been shrinking since the eighties and its stock mkt from 39000 to 8970 now. Luckily many japanese cos are great international cos serving the world. Luckily, their cos try to provide as much jobs without much govt effort to their residents as possible with little discrimination against elderly workers. And when they start up an overseas subsidiary, they will send their employees abroad to control its operations, trying to provide employment to japanese. However, spore cos are small and do not offer great products and services to the world and they do not send many sporeans over even if they have overseas subsdiaries because of cost. In the late 70s, only 1 in 20 are grads but now 1 in every 4 are grads. One very significant outcome would be rising unemployed grads like some countries where high grad unemployment exist.
As for the stop at 2 and later asking citizens to have more children, there is nothing wrong - because when one is poor have less children and when more affluent have more children. What is the problem is when human beings tasted the better lives of less children would find it having more children very burdensome.
There are no really that many robotic factories - when even an island has not enough people - how to attract foreign investment in spore?
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@Gohhock
At least Japan did not import 1/3 of their manpower...
At least their economy can support the elderly...
At least they identify themselves as one people...
At least they have pride and believe in their own people...
They have their unique sets of problems... different from Singapore's.Japan's population: 127,450,459 - 2010
Japan's GDP: $5.46 Trillion US dollars at current prices - 2010
Japan's area: 377923.1 km2Singapore's population:5,076,700 - 2010
Singapore's GDP:$208.77 Billion US dollars at current prices - 2010
Singapore's area: 704 km2Base on the above info from a quick google, if Japan's shrinking population is a problem, its not an economical problem.
How did you get the 1 in every 4 are grads? With immigrants or locals?
"One very significant outcome would be rising unemployed grads like some countries where high grad unemployment exist."
^ Begging the question(fallacy)... Read the words in bold....
"As for the stop at 2 and later asking citizens to have more children, there is nothing wrong - because when one is poor have less children and when more affluent have more children. What is the problem is when human beings tasted the better lives of less children would find it having more children very burdensome."
Old poor countries like India and China have high birth rates, they are currently the rising economic strong power...
There was never a problem of people wanting to have less/no children, unless you can elaborate."There are no really that many robotic factories - when even an island has not enough people - how to attract foreign investment in spore?"
Proper English please? I would want to understand your position better. See http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/economy/biz/feisummary.pdf for better understanding on foreign investment in Singapore. What is your country FDI against its population? Is there a correlation between FDI and population?
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The issue of the care for the elderly is not so much of due to not having enough children,rather than the existing children not looking after them.Its possible for the only child to at least show love to the parent.This is more of SG moral issue rather than a techincal population issue.
Japan has the LAND to support a larger population.For Japan,its not so much about the economy, its about the survival of the Japanese race.
Singapore as of right now,has TOO MANY people on a SMALL piece of land.Land is not just about factories.Houses,rooads and schools are just some other examples of how land is important.Thnik about recources and the prices of stuff around you as well.
This is just an opinion.
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Oh if it is just density then we should just compare with Tokyo/Shanghai/Bombay/HK/etc.
To take care of the moral issue of taking care of parents - just have more old folks' homes.
Japan has achieved much higher technical know how and economic dev than spore and yet since eighties it has been unable to get out of the mess. Japan will have to cut welfare benefits and raise tax because it has debts of 200% of its GDP, so do not have to envy Japan too much.
I do not think that the cost of 1/3 aliens is people do not feel as one in spore because those former sgporeans that migrated are living with much more aliens to them and yet they identify with their new countries as one.
China and India are having great economic powers because of their historical high birth rates, if not they should be the first to be developed nations long ago. They have great economic power because they have fast rising middle incomers beyond critical masses in a no of their cities. The rising middle incomers are because of FDIs in those cities.
Certainly greying and shrinking popn is an economic problem beside having other problems like fiscal burdens. Do you think US, Canada and Aust are compassionate in welcoming investor/skilled aliens?
We should ask how EDB bring in those FDIs. But roughly, large market/consumers is an attraction or close to market. I have no time to list the other 7 factors but certainly popn in cities is closely correlated to FDIs(not country popn).
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these will be added problem in 2, 3 decades time. Even a fool will know that.
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"Oh if it is just density then we should just compare with Tokyo/Shanghai/Bombay/HK/etc."
Its also about GDP. You were the 1st to mention Japan... Do it then... to present your points better.
"To take care of the moral issue of taking care of parents - just have more old folks' homes."
That's just saying :
"to take care of the issue of economy - just have more banks."
"to take care of the issue of low birth rates - just have more hospitals."
"to take care of the issue of health care - just have more insurance company."
Just saying..."Japan has achieved much higher technical know how and economic dev than spore and yet since eighties it has been unable to get out of the mess. Japan will have to cut welfare benefits and raise tax because it has debts of 200% of its GDP, so do not have to envy Japan too much."
Japan held 719,900,000,000 FDI stocks abroad. Debts of 208.2% of its GDP.
Singapore held 172,100,000,000 FDI stocks abroad. Debts of 118.2 % of its GDP.
What's not to envy?
Japan has welfare benefits to cut, Singapore don't have such benefit to cut from.
Raising tax has always been an option. What is your point?"I do not think that the cost of 1/3 aliens is people do not feel as one in spore because those former sgporeans that migrated are living with much more aliens to them and yet they identify with their new countries as one."
Please rephrase for me to understand what are you trying to say.
"China and India are having great economic powers because of their historical high birth rates, if not they should be the first to be developed nations long ago. They have great economic power because they have fast rising middle incomers beyond critical masses in a no of their cities. The rising middle incomers are because of FDIs in those cities."
Truth is, even when they were 3rd world countries, their birth rates had ALWAYS been high regardless of their respective government set laws to limit births.
Investment-->development-->population growth. More investments pours in when the initial investments proved to have good returns thus attracting more people to the deveopment."Certainly greying and shrinking popn is an economic problem beside having other problems like fiscal burdens. Do you think US, Canada and Aust are compassionate in welcoming investor/skilled aliens?"
It is more than just an economic problem. Problems that can be solved by money is not exactly a problem. No having enough money is an economic problem.
"We should ask how EDB bring in those FDIs. "
Please ask in your own leisure. I'm just presenting you what was available.
"But roughly, large market/consumers is an attraction or close to market. I have no time to list the other 7 factors but certainly popn in cities is closely correlated to FDIs(not country popn)."
Correlation does not imply causation.
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Originally posted by SevenEleven:
these will be added problem in 2, 3 decades time. Even a fool will know that.
looks like our politicians are worse than fools...
but then, by calling them worse than fools, i give them undue credit
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"Oh if it is just density then we should just compare with Tokyo/Shanghai/Bombay/HK/etc."
Its also about GDP. You were the 1st to mention Japan... Do it then... to present your points better.I did not mention GDP first. Any way, you should compare the density and per capita income with Tokyo/Shanghai/Bombay/HK/etc and we shall see.
"To take care of the moral issue of taking care of parents - just have more old folks' homes."I was just saying old folk's homes will be the state solution because not possible to enact laws to force children to take care of parents when they just do not have that love.
That's just saying :
"to take care of the issue of economy - just have more banks."
"to take care of the issue of low birth rates - just have more hospitals."
"to take care of the issue of health care - just have more insurance company."
Just saying...I do not see how you arrive at such logic."Japan has achieved much higher technical know how and economic dev than spore and yet since eighties it has been unable to get out of the mess. Japan will have to cut welfare benefits and raise tax because it has debts of 200% of its GDP, so do not have to envy Japan too much."
Japan held 719,900,000,000 FDI stocks abroad. Debts of 208.2% of its GDP.
Singapore held 172,100,000,000 FDI stocks abroad. Debts of 118.2 % of its GDP.
What's not to envy?Wrong, you cannot compare non-per capita data because spore is a small state.
Japan has welfare benefits to cut, Singapore don't have such benefit to cut from.
Raising tax has always been an option. What is your point?You should see that countries with sovereign wealth debt problems are those who have given unsustainable comprehensive benefits to their residents.- Japan, US and EU! Canada and Australia, Brunei still can afford because of the sudden dd from China and India. UK is their warning! I believe that citizens should primarily feed themselves and not want to depend on the state whether can afford or not - must not encourage bad behaviour.Spore do pay benefits though small."I do not think that the cost of 1/3 aliens is people do not feel as one in spore because those former sgporeans that migrated are living with much more aliens to them and yet they identify with their new countries as one."I was just trying to say that no one should feel that citizens would not feel oneness because spore import 1/3 aliens and pay no benefits because sporeans who have migrated happily feel oneoness with the new society even though they are living with far more 'aliens' to themselves there and have not enjoy full benefits because they go there to contribute(money and skills) to the society(the very reason why they are welcomed there).
Please rephrase for me to understand what are you trying to say.
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"China and India are having great economic powers because of their historical high birth rates, if not they should be the first to be developed nations long ago. They have great economic power because they have fast rising middle incomers beyond critical masses in a no of their cities. The rising middle incomers are because of FDIs in those cities."
Truth is, even when they were 3rd world countries, their birth rates had ALWAYS been high regardless of their respective government set laws to limit births.
Investment-->development-->population growth. More investments pours in when the initial investments proved to have good returns thus attracting more people to the deveopment.Ok are China leaders also stupid for the one-child policy? Birth control is a std solution to poverty - only China and Spore use law to enforce it. before. BTW, what you are saying here is that you are agreeing that large popn can attract FDIs and so Spore is right in trying to increase its popn to compete for the FDIs with Shanghai/Pudong/HK/Tokyo/etc."Certainly greying and shrinking popn is an economic problem beside having other problems like fiscal burdens. Do you think US, Canada and Aust are compassionate in welcoming investor/skilled aliens?"
It is more than just an economic problem. Problems that can be solved by money is not exactly a problem. No having enough money is an economic problem.Be realistic all time-dependent solvable/partially solvable problems involve money - may involve technology or physical feasibility or affordability et c. We should be least concern with unsollvable problems. Greying and shrinking popn involves money and affordability. We are not concern with whether sporeans will end their propagation. We are concern with how to ensure a smoother walk by removing what greying and shrinking popn bring to a nation. I do not see spore treat this as a pure economic problem.
"We should ask how EDB bring in those FDIs. "
Please ask in your own leisure. I'm just presenting you what was available.It is your liberty. I thought you cannot see how to bring in FDIs that you have to try statistical analysis.
"But roughly, large market/consumers is an attraction or close to market. I have no time to list the other 7 factors but certainly popn in cities is closely correlated to FDIs(not country popn)."
Correlation does not imply causation.It is you that have expressed your doubt of whether there is a correlation between popn and FDIs. So I used the fact that investors do consider big consumers or big middle income nos for FDI consideration to state that popn is correlated to FDIs. Statistics 101 will warn anyone that correlation does not imply causation.
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Knn accidentally close the tab I was working on 2x.... Will come back after emo.
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WOT.
Can summarize in 10 words or less?
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".I did not mention GDP first. Any way, you should compare the density and per capita income with Tokyo/Shanghai/Bombay/HK/etc and we shall see."
Density(km2) Tokyo: 14,400 Shanghai: 6,845 HK: 6,415 Spore: 7,276
GDP ($Bn) Tokyo: 1479 Shanghai: 233 HK: 320 Spore: 215Japan is rather productive."I was just saying old folk's homes will be the state solution because not possible to enact laws to force children to take care of parents when they just do not have that love."
"I do not see how you arrive at such logic.""To take care of the moral issue of taking care of parents - just have more old folks' homes.""to take care of the issue of economy - just have more banks."
"to take care of the issue of high birth rates - just have more nurseries." (edited)
"to take care of the issue of health care - just have more hospitals." (edited)Was trying to make you see the logic of your 1st statement. Now thats cleared and I see your point.
Its not only about responsibility. Its also about opening options for the aged to live and die with dignity."Wrong, you cannot compare non-per capita data because spore is a small state.I stand corrected. However their obsession with white elephants, the investments into research and innovation is enviable. Taxing has always been an option."You should see that countries with sovereign wealth debt problems are those who have given unsustainable comprehensive benefits to their residents.- Japan, US and EU! Canada and Australia, Brunei still can afford because of the sudden dd from China and India. UK is their warning! I believe that citizens should primarily feed themselves and not want to depend on the state whether can afford or not - must not encourage bad behaviour.Spore do pay benefits though small."Japan, US and EU(most of) can afford isolation, Singapore don't have that priviledge. Too much people, it sinks. Too little people, it starves. Singapore may be a nanny state but never a welfare state. The laws, policies and education create an environment that leaves its people desiring to be fed."I was just trying to say that no one should feel that citizens would not feel oneness because spore import 1/3 aliens and pay no benefits because sporeans who have migrated happily feel oneoness with the new society even though they are living with far more 'aliens' to themselves there and have not enjoy full benefits because they go there to contribute(money and skills) to the society(the very reason why they are welcomed there)."Its a case of too fast too furious. Train system overhaul, rising property prices, inflation, rich-poor gap widening,.... It a testing time for Singaporeans trust their government's direction. Questioning retirement, affordability, equality, and the amount of support avilable to the current generation when it grows old but unable to migrate.".Ok are China leaders also stupid for the one-child policy? Birth control is a std solution to poverty - only China and Spore use law to enforce it. before. "Not sure if I detected sacarsm... Did you mean to say that China and Singapore are the only stupid/ not stupid ones to enforce such policy?"BTW, what you are saying here is that you are agreeing that large popn can attract FDIs and so Spore is right in trying to increase its popn to compete for the FDIs with Shanghai/Pudong/HK/Tokyo/etc."I believe you misunderstood me here. See this and this.There are no correlation between population and received FDI.
The increase in population is to cater for the needs required by developments brought by the increase in investments from projected high returns."Be realistic all time-dependent solvable/partially solvable problems involve money - may involve technology or physical feasibility or affordability et c. We should be least concern with unsollvable problems. Greying and shrinking popn involves money and affordability. We are not concern with whether sporeans will end their propagation. We are concern with how to ensure a smoother walk by removing what greying and shrinking popn bring to a nation. I do not see spore treat this as a pure economic problem."Perhaps I oversimplified my words, but I see your point."It is your liberty. I thought you cannot see how to bring in FDIs that you have to try statistical analysis."I hope I can see sacarsm better. :)"It is you that have expressed your doubt of whether there is a correlation between popn and FDIs. So I used the fact that investors do consider big consumers or big middle income nos for FDI consideration to state that popn is correlated to FDIs. Statistics 101 will warn anyone that correlation does not imply causation."Somehow I cannot get data on received FDI on cities... Pehaps if you would, leisurely share the other 7 factors. -
Originally posted by charlize:
WOT.
Can summarize in 10 words or less?
Why am I sad when I actually find your above post funny... :p
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Having more migrants only helping the Rich solve their manpower shortage
and reduce the bargaining rights of workers with no protection from the
vicious business cycles .
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Density(km2) Tokyo: 14,400 Shanghai: 6,845 HK: 6,415 Spore: 7,276
GDP ($Bn) Tokyo: 1479 Shanghai: 233 HK: 320 Spore: 215Japan is rather productiveYou should compare with the respective citiies' per capita income. However, I have already stated at the outset that Japan has achieved higher technological know how and economic development than spore and many of their companies are real international companies. Assuming the density figures are correct(not doubting you - I will point out later on), Spore and Shanghai are not very different. We must bear in mind while this statistic does indicate how dense but there is still another factor not taken into account - efficient planning of space usage could make a city more liveable even though the density is higher.
"Wrong, you cannot compare non-per capita data because spore is a small state.I stand corrected. However their obsession with white elephants, the investments into research and innovation is enviable. Taxing has always been an option.I am only trying to point out your error - it is up to you. BTW, it does not mean just because Japan large stocks overseas it pay its debtors because the owners of the stocks and the owners of the libailities are not exactly the same. Yes spore's indulgence in olympics and sports are white elephants period. Other nations are even more crazy - having the tallest bldgs or longest linear city or IBMs or nuclear weapons or space explorations by India, China, Iran and NKorea are ridiculous while their citizens are starving. Investment in R&D is spore's effort in trying to make it to Japan level so that local cos could have the technological level to be great international cos. This is a very bold move - not a white elephant - high risk but spore could make it if successful. -
Originally posted by Gohhock:
Density(km2) Tokyo: 14,400 Shanghai: 6,845 HK: 6,415 Spore: 7,276
GDP ($Bn) Tokyo: 1479 Shanghai: 233 HK: 320 Spore: 215Japan is rather productiveYou should compare with the respective citiies' per capita income. However, I have already stated at the outset that Japan has achieved higher technological know how and economic development than spore and many of their companies are real international companies. Assuming the density figures are correct(not doubting you - I will point out later on), Spore and Shanghai are not very different. We must bear in mind while this statistic does indicate how dense but there is still another factor not taken into account - efficient planning of space usage could make a city more liveable even though the density is higher.
"Wrong, you cannot compare non-per capita data because spore is a small state.I stand corrected. However their obsession with white elephants, the investments into research and innovation is enviable. Taxing has always been an option.I am only trying to point out your error - it is up to you. BTW, it does not mean just because Japan large stocks overseas it pay its debtors because the owners of the stocks and the owners of the libailities are not exactly the same. Yes spore's indulgence in olympics and sports are white elephants period. Other nations are even more crazy - having the tallest bldgs or longest linear city or IBMs or nuclear weapons or space explorations by India, China, Iran and NKorea are ridiculous while their citizens are starving. Investment in R&D is spore's effort in trying to make it to Japan level so that local cos could have the technological level to be great international cos. This is a very bold move - not a white elephant - high risk but spore could make it if successful.
OOOeeii WAT A FUCKING WALL OF TEXTs1 question - wat is the main purpose of having more immigrans?
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Japan, US and EU(most of) can afford isolation, Singapore don't have that priviledge. Too much people, it sinks. Too little people, it starves. Singapore may be a nanny state but never a welfare state. The laws, policies and education create an environment that leaves its people desiring to be fed.Your first 2 stmts show that you should agree that small Singapore cannot afford isolation. Even for the sizeable Burma rich with natura resources isolation has caused it from,being the richest in SEA to the poorest now. Your density data do not show that spore density is too much at all. The british does not want to offer welfare to sporeans during colonial times and luckily our leaders developed on that idea till now. They have been consistent with the words and policies that we cannot afford to dish out benefits that we cannot afford. No top 1% in the world ever feel they are obligated to give benefits to lazy residents, leaving most of the burden born by the middle incomers thru tax. The top 1% has far more options to prevent being taxed too much which are not available to the mainstream people. So it is not the laws and policies that cause sporeans to desire to be fed but rather the knowledge of how much other countries are irresponsibly giving their citizens but ignoring the fact the damning consequences of the unsustainable burden. The Greeks also want the benefits of staying in EU but would not want austerity - want eurobonds finance and expect creditors to forgive 100% of their debts. So shameful that a still rich country expect dish out! If they want debt forgiveness they have to be making $5/day - that is what 3rd world countries could sometimes got loan writeoff.
I believe you misunderstood me here. See this and this.There are no correlation between population and received FDI.
The increase in population is to cater for the needs required by developments brought by the increase in investments from projected high returns.Your quote on Yangon density appears not reasonable. When I visited Yangon in the 90s, there was hardly any multi-storey bldgs and Yangon only recently opens up. How can Yangon achieve a density of more than 6800 per sq km? What is important is the large no of middle incomers earning sizeable income that investors are interested. So pure large popn is not the important factor. -
Are we fools to be hood winked by the government they just one to install in our mind of the aging population, why make this an issue ,when we all know that there are too many people of the foreign kind settled here, the criteria and grant of PR is a tad bit unprofessional., if the population is small, let the foreigner come in their own accord do not put out the red carpet, with marching band, free bees and other perks in your propagated justification to allow these “ people� in. I for one am sick of all the ho ha on aging population, what load of “governmental propagated Bandwagon to frighten us on the aging population. small population or not we Singaporeans will go forth and multiply from our sons , daughteres to grandchildren, they will do fine , we do not want outsiders coming in making us fearful,
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No country accepts immigrants to do charity work or to encumber themselves with extra burden. The main reason for accepting immigrants is their contributions to the country, viz:
1) To contribute money and skills to the society(skills based)
2) To contribute investment and employment (business based)
3) To top up the taxes to help to pay for the welfare benefits
4) To makeup for the shrinking pool of taxpayers due to aging fall in fertility
5) to add up the skills pool to attract more FDIs.