Low Thia Khiang urges Govt to review bilingualism policy
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
I see sense in low's speech. Try talking to someone from one of those big cities in china and I tell you many singaporeans won't understand what they are saying when they speak fast enough.
Well, one end of the Western world probably couldn't understand the spoken English from the other end. Hell, people from Beijing have problems understanding the Mandarin from the Shanxi province or Sichuan.Again, it is nothing that can't be resolved after just a month of mixing around with them.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
In the past, Chinese schools were used as a political tool for separatist movements therefore there was segregation.
In this new era, Chinese schools is to be structured differently and of course it does not have to be like the past, where it is used synchronically as a political tool for segregation.
Look at Malaysia, where Chinese schools still exist, without any political infiltration. Their standard of Chinese is very high. This is the way which we can model upon.
Therefore, there is no direct correlation of whether separation = language medium of a school.
It's the political ideology that were carried in those days.
Could you define what you mean by their standard of Chinese is very high? I was not particularly impressed by their spoken Chinese when i worked with them, somewhat better i'd think but it's not exactly a great gulf. I don't see my Chinese colleagues being able to understand them any better.
Talk to a Chinese Malaysian who studied in a Chinese school and tell me they don't feel seperated from the Malays in their country, look at the people they mix with are any significiant portions of them Malay? And you're saying there's no correlation between the language medium of the school and social seperation?
It doesn't matter if it's politically infiltrated because they're already the ethnic minority in Malaysia they would never gain any significiant political power.
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Originally posted by Siliconchip:
So you want to segregate singapore again by sending kids to chinese schools?
That has always been Poh Ah Pak's theme(Why he keeps changing his name is beyond me) for a few years now, sprouting racist bullshit (imagine, racism between chinese dialect groups!) and dreaming of some magical wonderland where not learning English and just sticking to our dialect group is somehow going to create some cultural Nirvana and moral paradise. You telling me that the Taiwanese and HongKongers don't have their own share of problems?The harsh fact is that if we were not forced to learn English we would just be some economic backwater with dirty streets and lousy future(You think our pay is little? Check with the Taiwanese). Bilingualism in Singapore would always need more work it's never easy to have an educational system that enforces learning two languages at once. Only when you start going overseas to study and work do you realise how bloody useful it is to be able to converse with both Westerners, Chinese and Taiwanese and how tough a time the other Asians have with trying to learn English (not to mention the money they have to pay with learning ESL)
I just find it hilarious that for all the effort the government made in making us survive globally, we actually do better outside Singapore than in it.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Could you define what you mean by their standard of Chinese is very high? I was not particularly impressed by their spoken Chinese when i worked with them, somewhat better i'd think but it's not exactly a great gulf. I don't see my Chinese colleagues being able to understand them any better.
Talk to a Chinese Malaysian who studied in a Chinese school and tell me they don't feel seperated from the Malays in their country, look at the people they mix with are any significiant portions of them Malay? And you're saying there's no correlation between the language medium of the school and social seperation?
It doesn't matter if it's politically infiltrated because they're already the ethnic minority in Malaysia they would never gain any significiant political power.
ok, point by point
1. Indeed, on the superficial level, we find their 4 tones of spoken Mandarin to be quite corrupted. The historical basis of the current Malaysian Mandarin is based on the Hakka dialect model. Neither does our Singaporean spoken Mandarin is perfect compared to the Standard Putonghua no doubt our tonal structure (the Suprasegmental Tonal Structure) happens to be much nearer to it thanks to our Hokkien base instead of the Hakka base of the Malaysian Mandarin.
See this post in detail for my exposition on Singapore Mandarin to show it's flaws and my not-yet-crafted post on Malaysian Mandarin (if you do request, I am more than willing to do a writeup for you here) :
http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/432594?page=2#post_10280630
2. On the deeper level, their Chinese schools used Mandarin Chinese as the main medium to teach all subjects, i.e. Maths, Sciences, Humanities. Their spoken Mandarin Chinese may not be pleasing to our Singaporean ears and (maybe Chinese colleagues as you mentioned) but definitely as expounded in my previous post, our Singaporean Mandarin is not at all fantastic too. When it comes to the written form and the way they can use Chinese to think, it comes much much superior to ours. Can we Singaporeans even know the simple Chinese terms for "water vapour", "protractor", "metaphor" and "oesophagus", not to venture into "hydroxyl", "trigonometry" and "blood brain barrier" lah! Go ask the Malaysians from Chinese schools (eg. Foon Yew, Chung Hwa etc. ) hor, dun ask those from Sekolah Kebangsaan please.
High(er) than us or not?
3. The 2nd paragraph, that you mentioned, we gotta sort it out straight. The Chinese schools does not overtly imbue them with Chinese political ideology and agenda (DO YOU REALLY KNOW OR NOT???) and I agree with you they feel separated from the Malays, because the root of the problem is the Malay Education system that imbues the BUMIPUTRA ideology and the KUOTA system that prejudice the Chinese when they can get 11A's in their SPM and they are not allowed to enter Malaysian U's just because they are Chinese-ed. Even if you are a non-Malay (eg. Chinese and Indians) and you study in Sekolah Kebangsaan, if you do not meet the required target of mother tongue you are subjected to PERALIHAN system and many people extended 1 to 2 EXTRA years in their school life.
So is Malaysian Malay system prejudice Chinese (and wanting to distance the Chinese), NOT Chinese distance themselves from Malays please.
As normal beings who strive hard, they naturally feel bitter after putting in so much effort.
Social separation is purposely done by the Mainstream Malays to the minorities, the minority Chinese and Indians always seek to preserve their culture and by virtue of hardwork seeks to earn a place of living in their host country. Well, they are too late to blame their ancestors for coming to Malaysia in the first place.
Thank you for reading and welcome further discussions.
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Stevenson101
This is a piece of article that I read a couple of months ago. A down to earth Malay guy blogger from Malaysia that can see clearly the Malaysian Political Party playing with emotional blackmailing politics to cause separation to their benefit.
Please do take a look.
http://syakirinrosik.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/why-i-support-bersih-part-1/
I quote some that I feel agreement with:
The most puzzling thing is that Bersih has not once, made any racial remarks or statements, but are still accused as the one who are trying to initiate racial war in Malaysia. The government, on the other hand, keep reminding the Malays to defend their country. From what? And by segregating warnings, you are the one who started the racial war, government. But then again, that has always been your weapon to defend your corrupted and racist parliament.
The government’s trick in relating Bersih to Communism was believed to anger the Malays, and so they too would fight against Bersih. By right, no Malays should be intimidated or angered by this fake relation since half of Chin Peng’s people were Malay. Also, half of those in the police force were non-Malays. History Channel once interviewed an old Malay man on his experience as part of the communist group pre-Independence. In the same documentary, a Chinese old man told his story about fighting against the communist in order to protect Tanah Melayu. So please don’t say that only the Malays fought for Independence, no. Malaysians, fought for Independence.
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Look at how PERALIHAN students are prejudiced in Malaysia
Just another simple blogger (no political agenda behind):
http://www.mamakk.com/04/malaysia/peralihan-students-tiada-harapan/
With the best attitude towards the education system, they do not have 1st language command in Malay even though they are kept for 6 years in MALAY Stream schools, in general Peralihan students are termed as "Tiada Harapan (means "No Future")" or "Removed (from mainstream)" students by the Malay-majority society.
With such a fucked-up prejudicial Malay mainstream education system and mindset, I must agree whole-heartedly with your paragraph above:
Talk to a Chinese Malaysian who studied in a Chinese school and tell me they don't feel seperated from the Malays in their country, look at the people they mix with are any significiant portions of them Malay? And you're saying there's no correlation between the language medium of the school and social seperation?
but with a twist to it, that the whole show is indeed started by the MALAYS who don't want the CHINESE to mix with them
Who is the one playing social separation now?>
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Originally posted by alize:
Look here, we have a devotee.
Don't get me wrong, I respect different views but yours is one of unquestioning respect and admiration for a woman who has done little yet is venerated.
To you, she had done little. From my observation of materials I had read & seen over the years, she exemplified a good wife and mother as I can only aspire to be. Intelligent, careerwoman who could easily have made her voice heard, as do many wives today, in the name of gender equality, but at the expense of undermining their husbands' delicate egoes... Mrs Lee knew how to balance it all and her quiet support was what drove the dynamism that was LKY. Watching old videos of them together, the true love they shared was a sight to behold and admire....not as leaders but as human beings. So many marriages today breakdown due to misplaced pride and trying to outdo each other... therefore when we see true marital love, it is only right to recognise it. This woman came home every day during lunchbreak from her busy law firm... to have lunch with her children.... then rushed back to work. A PM's wife. How many of us working mums would do that...everyday?? Most of us relinquish our duties to the maids; and would rather spend lunchtime shopping or maybe go for quick massage or pedicure...and even on weekends, we demand "our" time, and spend a whole day playing mahjong...Yes to me, and of course to her family, Mrs Lee's contributions and acheivements are colossal and immensely appreciated.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
for a few years now, sprouting racist bullshit (imagine, racism between chinese dialect groups!)What racist bullshit between dialects?
???
I keep telling people not to fight over petty issues and not to fall for Lee Kuan Yew's divide and rule tactics, not suddenly I racist?
The racist is Lee Kuan Yew lah.
Keep on spreading propaganda say what people who defend chinese rights are chauvinists. Incite the minorities to oppose them.
Then Lee Kuan Yew the peranakan keep on defending and promoting his mother tongue english not racist?
Total crap.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Look at Malaysia, where Chinese schools still exist, without any political infiltration. Their standard of Chinese is very high. This is the way which we can model upon.
Malaysia can be used as a model that is true. We can have chinese language universities like in the past for higher education.
But the people trained from these universities won't support the banana party PAP.
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Originally posted by Dalforce 25:
What racist bullshit between dialects?
???
I keep telling people not to fight over petty issues and not to fall for Lee Kuan Yew's divide and rule tactics, not suddenly I racist?
The racist is Lee Kuan Yew lah.
Keep on spreading propaganda say what people who defend chinese rights are chauvinists. Incite the minorities to oppose them.
Then Lee Kuan Yew the peranakan keep on defending and promoting his mother tongue english not racist?
Total crap.
Dalforce 25 aka Poh Ah Pak aka Vote PAP Out to Save SG: Look at your own posts, you are like LKY. Now you are the pot calling the kettle black. You are manipulative, political, hypocritical and racist.
Chicken out to admit you were Poh Ah Pak, and insinuated I am Poh Ah Pak to stop forumers to focus on your shit and said I am fishy. No way I will let that be.
Don't call LKY racist when you are one. You are against Peranakan.
Originally posted by Dalforce 25:
No, that's not the case. I only meant it as a joke, because I assumed you could take a joke. I wanted to distract the quarrel sbst275 had with me. I have no other bad intent.
Originally posted by Dalforce 25:
gorgorlokaychyong is poh ah pak? No wonder so fishy.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Therefore, there is no direct correlation of whether separation = language medium of a school.
Seems like Harry Lee Kuan Yew concocted that propaganda up to use as a pretext to block mandarin as dominant language in 75% chinese populated Singapore and to promote his own mother tongue english as dominant so as to serve his own political interests and interests of the peranakans.
Mandarin was the main language used by his rivals, Barisan Socialis and others.
I said already, the language issue is a political issue, don't be fooled by Lee Kuan Yew's propaganda.
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Originally posted by gorgorlokaychyong:
You are against Peranakan.
I am against Harry Lee Kuan Yew. I am not against peranakan.
Some peranakans also despise Harry Lee Kuan Yew. We cannot lump all the peranakans together as if they are all one cohesive group. This is completely wrong.
Lee Kuan Yew is the bad egg among the peranakans for suppressing chinese dialects.
In my interpretation, the Babas' newly-published distinctions between "Straits Chinese" and "Babas" along cultural lines have to be taken seriously when accounting for the time of their appearance and the more recent past, but not further back (namely, the period preceding the Japanese Occupation).
According to the new cultural definition, a Baba should also be a Hokkien.
According to some purist Hokkien Babas, who regard themselves as true-blue Baba jati, non-Hokkien Babas are only Baba chelup.
The expression suggests that the Baba chelup are only superficially dipped in the paint of Babaness and are at best "nominal" Babas.
Apart from the conceptual history until the late '50s which contradicts such a narrow conception of a Baba, we have a few examples of prominent non-Hokkien Babas.
First and foremost, there is Hakka Baba Lee Kuan Yew (who regards himself as a Baba only technically).
Others are the Melaka dondang sayang singer and serunee player Yeo Kim Swee, who is a Hainanese Baba, and Ambassador to Germany Walter Woon, who is a Cantonese Baba.
http://www.asiawind.com/pub/forum/fhakka/mhonarc/msg01319.html
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Originally posted by Dalforce 25:
I am against Harry Lee Kuan Yew. I am not against peranakan.
Some peranakans also despise Harry Lee Kuan Yew.
Don't deny, your posts tell it all. You think people here reading your posts are all retarded ! -
Originally posted by gorgorlokaychyong:
Don't deny, your posts tell it all. You think people here reading your posts are all retarded !If they think that I am against peranakans, then they have misinterpret my intent.
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Originally posted by Dalforce 25:
If they think that I am against peranakans, then they have misinterpret my intent.
You are means you are don't always give lame excuse people misinterpret your intent. So cowardly not to admit! -
There are still some singaporeans who still buy the propaganda from local media which LKY has made them to be under him. Of course when one is under the boss you think they dare do things against him. Think, think real hard, use working brain to think!
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Well, one end of the Western world probably couldn't understand the spoken English from the other end. Hell, people from Beijing have problems understanding the Mandarin from the Shanxi province or Sichuan.Again, it is nothing that can't be resolved after just a month of mixing around with them.
One month? Maybe you're talking about elementary conversational chinese. Or they could be using simple language so that you can understand them.
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It's good to learn 2 languages.
Or 3 or 4.
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Originally posted by Siliconchip:
"Opposition leader Low Thia Khiang on Friday urged the Government to review its bilingualism policy, by focusing on teaching mother tongues better through deeper appreciation of cultures.
One way he suggested is to promote a deeper appreciation of each ethnic group's culture.
Mr Low said it was necessary to do so because the government policy has eroded the ability among Chinese Singaporeans to read and write proficiently in the mother tongue.
Without changes on this front, Mr Low said it could affect Singapore's ability to compete globally, given that many youth in other countries are becoming effectively bilingual and could exploit opportunities in a rising China." Cant find full article.
Most Singaporeans, including myself are effectively bilingual. Low seems to promote Mandarin a bit too much, don't you think? The truth is, he can't speak English well at all. Perhaps that is why he wants to promote 'effective bilingualism' (i.e. knowing Chinese) among all Singaporeans.
Bilingualism is good. Knowing more languages open up more doors of opportunity for your future.Not knowing more language, at most can only become struggling MP for Opposition Parties.
What if the Parliament suddenly passed a law that stated "All future PM must be Bilingual"?
Ohh...then cannot become PM liao....TRAGIC ~~!!!!
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Originally posted by nrapmai:
Bilingualism is good. Knowing more languages open up more doors of opportunity for your future.Not knowing more language, at most can only become struggling MP for Opposition Parties.
What if the Parliament suddenly passed a law that stated "All future PM must be Bilingual"?
Ohh...then cannot become PM liao....TRAGIC ~~!!!!
are you parn
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
are you parn
Oh my god don't remind me of that tranny.
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
One month? Maybe you're talking about elementary conversational chinese. Or they could be using simple language so that you can understand them.
Obviously a month isn't enough to start going deep into philosophically and technically complex discussions but it is not exactly as bad as you seemed to be put it (Of course, i could misunderstood the degree of which you meant)
But from my experience it's more of an adjustment rather than any huge wall, learning how they pronounce different words and the slangs they like to use and slowly getting used to them. A month is not an unreasonable estimate to establish a decent communication over a cup of coffee(or chinese tea). Sure they find it funny how we pronounce different words differently but so far i have not encountered any real challenges to talking with someone from Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and Inner Mongolia.