Top military and police officer as politicans
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
To an extent, ex military leaders will have influence on some people in the military, same as ex civil servants, ex school principals, ex unionists, ex CEO ...... this is inevitable. But after taking off their uniforms, can the military leaders still get the military to support him, or the students to support the principals, or the civil servants to support their former head of department, or the ex union head to mobilize the workers to walk the street, can the CEO mobilize the wealth of his previous company for his own political agenda? the answer is NO.
You also argue that an ex military leader could run the country like an army, or an ex school principal think all citizens are their students, or an ex CEO's interest is to make money for the country with little regards for the people....there are many possibilities.
But for the former chief of Navy to become our defence minister, it is better for than any other who does not have any experience run a part of a total armed forces to run our national defence agency, and look after our soldiers!
There is never a perfect leader!
The worst that can happen is for a politician to run the country just for political reason
para 1.
The reason why i brought this up is because the current situation that happen in the arab or northern african continents, the dictator has direct control over the military. The thai arm forces are under the direct control of the royal family. that why in thailand no one from the yellow shirts are prosecuted after seizing the airport. all military leaders in singapore have link with the current ruling regime. If there is massive protest on the streets in singapore should that happen one day, how unbias can the military leader be? moreover your examples quoted are not really relevant. as officers in the armed forces we take orders and obey orders. your other quoted examples such as students, businessesman, employess do not.
para 2.
we already seeing in many countries that military generals when participating in politics can cause what kind of havoc. most dictators in history tends to be generals themselves or control the military or have generals sworn loyalty to them.
para3.
i do not agree defence minister need to be run by former generals.robert gates USA secretary of defence is just a lieutenant in the airforce. he has abandon of generals to advice him on policy which he discuss with the president or PM.
however i do agree there is no perfect leader. but when we pay our leaders the highest salary in the world ( excludes murbarak gaddefi) , we deserve to demand almost perfect from them.
if you vote for a politician not for politics reason, then PAP is suitable for you coz they choose leaders for economic reasons only.
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Like i say....its good and bad....
In Singapore as politician always said margin for error is very small......as such very little room for leader to make mistake "I Stand Corrected" .......you get cynical citizen.
As the saying goes.....in military we salute the Rank not the Man. In politics we look at the Man not the Rank. so for ex military leaders if unable to adapt it will exist the arena. Than it is the political party that made the wrong decision to accept the individual. The political party suffer the consequence.
For those example you gave who cannabilised their own citizens so to rule......that is why there are unrest in their countries.
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Originally posted by reyes:
recently i read thru that few military and police officer are retiring early to join the PAP.
while i do not quite convince about their motive to serve the nation but their former identity does not strike well with me.
I do not support top military and police brass to join politics. We have to separate the role of politicians and military personnel separate. Currently we already have lui tuck yew, Teo chee hean, george yeo, LHL all holiding ministerial position. That is already a very high % in the whole ministerial cabintet. Are we going to be rule by military regime? what kind of political path are we persueing?
It also seem like the there is close behind the door relationship between the PAP and military and police topmen. it has become the breeding ground for the future leaders of Singapore too. If in the future , the ruling regime is being charge with corruption and ppl strike in the streets as case in libya, egypt, where does our police and miliary position?
I hate ex-military personnel becoming a politican.
Maybe they were from the wayang organization, made them easier to join the wayang party. They have the same wayang culture mah. Pui!.
I remembered Mr Lee said that they have very good organizing skills. I believe that they can gather people round the camp fire and sing songs only.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
Like i say....its good and bad....
In Singapore as politician always said margin for error is very small......as such very little room for leader to make mistake "I Stand Corrected" .......you get cynical citizen.
As the saying goes.....in military we salute the Rank not the Man. In politics we look at the Man not the Rank. so for ex military leaders if unable to adapt it will exist the arena. Than it is the political party that made the wrong decision to accept the individual. The political party suffer the consequence.
For those example you gave who cannabilised their own citizens so to rule......that is why there are unrest in their countries.
right and wrong, the ex military man might not be afterall choosen by the ppl choice as they tend to hide in GRC. what kind of consequences are there when they control the mainstream media. you might not be able to know if there is a mistake. either we singaporeans are forgiving or we are dope!Do we wait for mistake to happen then perform countermeasure. Do do you think prevention better than cure?
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I think this subject is being played out.
Singapore is diff as compared to many poor and developing country in miltary/poltices equalisbrium. I think high ranking offices bearer in SAF and Police take their position as a 'job' and not interested with polities since they are well pay.
The govern keep them happy by giving them even higher pay job after their discharge.
Nevertheless, almost all Singapore men is military and police so in case of protests who will be in control?
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Originally posted by Wmyongj:
I think this subject is being played out.
Singapore is diff as compared to many poor and developing country in miltary/poltices equalisbrium. I think high ranking offices bearer in SAF and Police take their position as a 'job' and not interested with polities since they are well pay.
The govern keep them happy by giving them even higher pay job after their discharge.
Nevertheless, almost all Singapore men is military and police so in case of protests who will be in control?
is it so, why so many ex top police chief and generals join 100% to PAP? maybe it is their intention afterall to get the scholarship and then moving to higher office to get million dollar salary. -
Soon, SG will be run by military government.
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Originally posted by reyes:
is it so, why so many ex top police chief and generals join 100% to PAP? maybe it is their intention afterall to get the scholarship and then moving to higher office to get million dollar salary.Yes, by giving them material wealth, who is nut enought to pursue political opposition against the government? We are not raise from young on politic idealogy unless influence by religion or povety. Like the middle east and Africa. Military in developing country revolt but in the rich country, miliatry simply take this as a profession.
Anyway, we should not raise issue like military integrity in Singapore as although we may not be happy with the government policies, WE , including me, served our NS and should uplift the reputation of our fellow army folks. Sorry, for the subject, I disagree with you.
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Aiya, talk cock no use. Come election time if they want to put some asshole bootlicker in charge of your constituency, don't vote for them la. This election every constituency being contested what. Vote for Opposition, now alot of graduates and talented people also in Opposition. These are the kind of people who don't bend over just because people flash some money in front of their face, the type of people who can represent THE CITIZENS OF SINGAPORE.
If Opposition win sure the flood gates of talent will be thrown wide open. All the graduate sons and daughters of uncles and aunties who have suffered under the heel of the Money Face Traitors will volunteer in droves to join RC. Throw out all the corrupt RC bootlickers. Clean up the constituency. Demand better transport services. Not just wayang during election time like mugging toads. Why vote for Mugger Toads when can vote for Lions and Tigers.
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The answer is very obvious right?
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Originally posted by Wmyongj:
Yes, by giving them material wealth, who is nut enought to pursue political opposition against the government? We are not raise from young on politic idealogy unless influence by religion or povety. Like the middle east and Africa. Military in developing country revolt but in the rich country, miliatry simply take this as a profession.
Anyway, we should not raise issue like military integrity in Singapore as although we may not be happy with the government policies, WE , including me, served our NS and should uplift the reputation of our fellow army folks. Sorry, for the subject, I disagree with you.
i mean it is OK to disagree. that why we are here for, voice up and bring up differences which we cannot hear from the mainstream media. I serve in SAF too. yet i am not that confident our armed forces can stay unbias in times of crisis. since most of the cronies generals are party members of the PAP. -
Actually its just because they're SAFOS scholars rights? Thats why they have to serve in the military first and have strong links to governmental organisations be it politics or not.
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Originally posted by stellazio:
Actually its just because they're SAFOS scholars rights? Thats why they have to serve in the military first and have strong links to governmental organisations be it politics or not.
that make our politics more dangerous as PAP manage to make the policeforce and military a feeder channel for them. -
I think there is a huge downside to this.
When you are a general in the armed forces, you tell the people below what to do and they have to listen to you.
In politics (in a democracy), the people are your "masters" and you are supposed to listen to them.
Going from a "I give you orders, you listen to me" to a "What do you want? I am here to serve you" environment are seriously 2 different things.
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Which also mean that the likelihood of a female defence mininster, foreign minister, dpm and pm, coming form the pap-led government is very very slim due to the current practice.
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Originally posted by charlize:
I think there is a huge downside to this.
When you are a general in the armed forces, you tell the people below what to do and they have to listen to you.
In politics (in a democracy), the people are your "masters" and you are supposed to listen to them.
Going from a "I give you orders, you listen to me" to a "What do you want? I am here to serve you" environment are seriously 2 different things.
Since when has our political party been performing a "i listen and serve you" role. Its more of "i give you orders, no discussion you should just live with it" similar to our military right?
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Originally posted by reyes:
right and wrong, the ex military man might not be afterall choosen by the ppl choice as they tend to hide in GRC. what kind of consequences are there when they control the mainstream media. you might not be able to know if there is a mistake. either we singaporeans are forgiving or we are dope!Do we wait for mistake to happen then perform countermeasure. Do do you think prevention better than cure?
At the current politics dominated by one party cover ups exist at every levels civilian leaders or Green leaders......with limited independent jurdicial in singapore. Like i said ministers, political leaders start out their career from Green happen in Western countries as well and they become elected official, but they have their system of checks and balance within their respective countries.
In singapore SAF is pretty much part of Singapore livelyhood for most man. It has a leadership delimma and that is if you do not considered helping these man moving forward to other roles, leadership renewal within SAF get stall at the top level.
either they can't find a suitable job that match their career in SAF or They will have to move to other countries to take up jobs that might compromised Singapore security information.
I see the benefit of green evolved leadership as having served the career of singapore security interest, of course the career hazzard is that they are so used to ordering around that it make than a "Talk Shop politician" on a one way communication.
i think what is needed is to break away from one party system and allow General to joint opposition party. Than the resources to cultivate Singaporean leadership comes from the ministry of leadership renewal within Mindef not be seen as a PAP brain child but of course that would not happen.......in the near future.
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Originally posted by reyes:
para 1.
The reason why i brought this up is because the current situation that happen in the arab or northern african continents, the dictator has direct control over the military. The thai arm forces are under the direct control of the royal family. that why in thailand no one from the yellow shirts are prosecuted after seizing the airport. all military leaders in singapore have link with the current ruling regime. If there is massive protest on the streets in singapore should that happen one day, how unbias can the military leader be? moreover your examples quoted are not really relevant. as officers in the armed forces we take orders and obey orders. your other quoted examples such as students, businessesman, employess do not.
para 2.
we already seeing in many countries that military generals when participating in politics can cause what kind of havoc. most dictators in history tends to be generals themselves or control the military or have generals sworn loyalty to them.
para3.
i do not agree defence minister need to be run by former generals.robert gates USA secretary of defence is just a lieutenant in the airforce. he has abandon of generals to advice him on policy which he discuss with the president or PM.
however i do agree there is no perfect leader. but when we pay our leaders the highest salary in the world ( excludes murbarak gaddefi) , we deserve to demand almost perfect from them.
if you vote for a politician not for politics reason, then PAP is suitable for you coz they choose leaders for economic reasons only.
no disagreement about the role of military in the stability of a government. Question is who the generals would listen to in time of internal crisis? You assume that the ex generals in Singapore will continue to have influence in the army to the extent that they could mobilize them for their own agenda. I believe the SAF would not get involved in any political fight, the PAP got internal security act, the Ghukas, why need the conscripts?
for that matter, to what extent can the PM of Singapore use the SAF for the sake of the "stability" of the country or in the name of national security, I do not know.
Agree we are entitled to demand from the government, but my demand and your demand are not the same, in the end, the majority counts doesn't it?
I certainly don't vote for politician whose political ambition is not relevant to the well being of the people. I also don't vote for economists, technocrats, or businessmen who cannot translate what they do into benefits for me and my family.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
no disagreement about the role of military in the stability of a government. Question is who the generals would listen to in time of internal crisis? You assume that the ex generals in Singapore will continue to have influence in the army to the extent that they could mobilize them for their own agenda. I believe the SAF would not get involved in any political fight, the PAP got internal security act, the Ghukas, why need the conscripts?
for that matter, to what extent can the PM of Singapore use the SAF for the sake of the "stability" of the country or in the name of national security, I do not know.
Agree we are entitled to demand from the government, but my demand and your demand are not the same, in the end, the majority counts doesn't it?
I certainly don't vote for politician whose political ambition is not relevant to the well being of the people. I also don't vote for economists, technocrats, or businessmen who cannot translate what they do into benefits for me and my family.
bro, my concern do not just restrict to generals from the SAF but also ex police chief or high ranking policeofficer. you are right, i am also worry about the police force too as i think they are acting like secret police for the PAP. similar to gestapo and SS or Nazi.
from the way, the PAP milk the generals and high ranking police officer into their party is already a high concern. they SAF doctrine might restrict them joining the PAP youth wing or party but the often sudden resignation from the service and joing only the PAP told us, there is a link between PAP and military and police.
you are assuming we had a safeguard measure to ensure there is no military coup. I am also assuming that day wont come as long as Lee if one day loses his election and willing to step down gracefully. i wish and hope he stay sane.
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Originally posted by reyes:
bro, my concern do not just restrict to generals from the SAF but also ex police chief or high ranking policeofficer. you are right, i am also worry about the police force too as i think they are acting like secret police for the PAP. similar to gestapo and SS or Nazi.
from the way, the PAP milk the generals and high ranking police officer into their party is already a high concern. they SAF doctrine might restrict them joining the PAP youth wing or party but the often sudden resignation from the service and joing only the PAP told us, there is a link between PAP and military and police.
you are assuming we had a safeguard measure to ensure there is no military coup. I am also assuming that day wont come as long as Lee if one day loses his election and willing to step down gracefully. i wish and hope he stay sane.
actually I believe that the old Lee might use the military or the police in an event that the ruling party lose control to an unknown opposition in a freak election. In that event, I don't think they need the influence of the ex military or police mp, there are so many ways to mobilize the required forces, in the name of national stability.
Hope that will not happen.
I think the requirement that the generals and police chief have to resign, and get elected is a necessary, and a good safeguard. Besides, it is the choice of the person to decide if he would join the PAP or the opposition.
Imagine we have an ex general in the opposition camp trying to use his influence in the army to go against the government, hmm....that is not very desirable also.
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Originally posted by reyes:
i mean it is OK to disagree. that why we are here for, voice up and bring up differences which we cannot hear from the mainstream media. I serve in SAF too. yet i am not that confident our armed forces can stay unbias in times of crisis. since most of the cronies generals are party members of the PAP.
If Singapore faces a crisis like ME, our military is likely busy with controlling the exodus of foreigner than the revolt of the citizen. To neighbouring countries, it is unnerving to to see 40% of Singapore current population making their way back home to these ppl's own countries.Unlike ME countries, where its citizen are used to unemployment and poverty, Singaporean have not faces mass scale unemployment ever. For the rich and able Singaporean, likely they will make their way aboard and never return. All the IR, buildings, offices, industries will be left empty although Singapore government will distribute food aids etc, in no time it will be overthrown.
I think at that time, SAF will be busy defending against possible foreign invasion, like the US, PRC or even the Indian because no countries passing through the strait of Meleka can afford to have its safe passage choked.
I really dont think the SAF would ever face the time that its has to listen to the government and turn against its ppl, never.
As for many NSFs, it recalled, depending on the cause, many will desert and leave the country if it is to turn his gun against our own friends and buddy.
I ever asked many Taiwanese friends who serve NS if they will ever defend Taiwan against PRCs, the answer is a resounding NO.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
actually I believe that the old Lee might use the military or the police in an event that the ruling party lose control to an unknown opposition in a freak election. In that event, I don't think they need the influence of the ex military or police mp, there are so many ways to mobilize the required forces, in the name of national stability.
Hope that will not happen.
I think the requirement that the generals and police chief have to resign, and get elected is a necessary, and a good safeguard. Besides, it is the choice of the person to decide if he would join the PAP or the opposition.
Imagine we have an ex general in the opposition camp trying to use his influence in the army to go against the government, hmm....that is not very desirable also.
bro, your comparison not fair. why you assume ex general who join the PAP are decent person while if an ex general join the oppostion camp might instill instability in singapore? WTF?
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Originally posted by Wmyongj:
If Singapore faces a crisis like ME, our military is likely busy with controlling the exodus of foreigner than the revolt of the citizen. To neighbouring countries, it is unnerving to to see 40% of Singapore current population making their way back home to these ppl's own countries.Unlike ME countries, where its citizen are used to unemployment and poverty, Singaporean have not faces mass scale unemployment ever. For the rich and able Singaporean, likely they will make their way aboard and never return. All the IR, buildings, offices, industries will be left empty although Singapore government will distribute food aids etc, in no time it will be overthrown.
I think at that time, SAF will be busy defending against possible foreign invasion, like the US, PRC or even the Indian because no countries passing through the strait of Meleka can afford to have its safe passage choked.
I really dont think the SAF would ever face the time that its has to listen to the government and turn against its ppl, never.
As for many NSFs, it recalled, depending on the cause, many will desert and leave the country if it is to turn his gun against our own friends and buddy.
I ever asked many Taiwanese friends who serve NS if they will ever defend Taiwan against PRCs, the answer is a resounding NO.
if i have such a friends i would told them " fucxxxg pussy".you are not defending taiwan for the sake of KMT, or green camp. you defends for your loves one still in taiwan, gf, parents, goof friends, relatives. So stop being pussy, pick up and gun and fight for your love ones.
ppl in libya or fighting, dying for their freedom, yet there are ppl who are willing to give up protecting their love ones. sissy PSH.
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Originally posted by reyes:
bro, your comparison not fair. why you assume ex general who join the PAP are decent person while if an ex general join the oppostion camp might instill instability in singapore? WTF?
"Imagine we have an ex general in the opposition camp trying to use his influence in the army to go against the government," is on the same assumption that "an ex general in the PAP camp could use his influence in the army to go against protesting crowd", both are equally not very desirable.
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Originally posted by reyes:
if i have such a friends i would told them " fucxxxg pussy".you are not defending taiwan for the sake of KMT, or green camp. you defends for your loves one still in taiwan, gf, parents, goof friends, relatives. So stop being pussy, pick up and gun and fight for your love ones.
ppl in libya or fighting, dying for their freedom, yet there are ppl who are willing to give up protecting their love ones. sissy PSH.
That exactly the reason for not fighting PRC, if you study history, Taiwanese are interlinked with PRC in many ways, either through ancertory or marriages now. Indeed, non of Taiwanese have no relatives or friends in PRCs. What are they defending for? communists?
If there is either an invasion by PRCs, it probably the American that defends Taiwan.
As many Taiwanes believe, PRC will NEVER invade Taiwan unless PRC again fall into the hand of dictatorial governing OR Taiwan go independent which means it changes its name to Taiwan nation instead contimue ROC