Democrats rebut PAP minimum wage groupthink
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Let's discuss Economics and not tell others to go read Economics 101 if you can't make a good rebuttal.
I admit that I am not perfect, I am still learning, if I make mistakes in my reasoning, you can correct me if you are able to.
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Originally posted by βÎτά:
If the equilibrium price of say apples is $1, you mean to tell me that it's effective to set the controlled price at $2?
That is your understanding of effective?
Yes, if the equillibrium price of $1 is considered too low. So, an effective floor price is set above $1 eg $2 and this floor price is known as minimum or floor price.
If the equilibrium price is considered too high. So an effective ceiling price is set below $1 eg $0.50 and this ceiling price is known as maximum price or price ceiling.
So, when you said "That really depends if the Minimum Wage set is above or below the equilibrium rate." is incorrect.
When the need for minimum wage is discussed, the current equilibrium wage is considered too low and we need to set a minimum wage above the equilibrium wage for it to be effective.
Minimum wage is always set above the equilibrium wage so that workers will earn higher wage
Where got minimum wage is set below the equilibrium wage ie minimum wage sets below equilibrium wage means that workers will earn lower wage.
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Ermmm...
There is no $1 equilibrium price considered too low. I already told you $1 is the equilibrium price (market clearing) of Apples, but to be effective you said it needs to be set at $2.
Equilibrium price means the market clears at that rate. Still can consider too low?
You are just regurgitating out textbook knowledge.
When the current equilibrium rate is too low, say $0.50 when the market clearing is $1, by setting it to $0.95, though we are not above the equilibrium rate. But then demand still outpace supply. But your understanding is setting it to $2 would be effective. Effective deadweight loss?
The issue is.
What is the equilibrium rate?
If the equilibrium rate is $1, employers are currently paying $0.50, then you are still below the equilibrium rate and setting it at $0.95 is still below the equlibrium rate. Your understanding or misunderstanding is that $0.50 is the equilibrium rate, but the fact is, we both don't know what is the equilibrium rate.
Unless you can give me the calculation for the equilibrium wage in Singapore.
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But.....how is it possible to have an equilibrium when PAP decides to cause supply shocks by importing so many foreign labour.
Real wages will always suffer because PAP is competing with China for cost effectiveness.
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Originally posted by βÎτά:
Ermmm...
There is no $1 equilibrium price considered too low. I already told you $1 is the equilibrium price (market clearing) of Apples, but to be effective you said it needs to be set at $2.
Equilibrium price means the market clears at that rate. Still can consider too low?
You are just regurgitating out textbook knowledge.
When the current equilibrium rate is too low, say $0.50 when the market clearing is $1, by setting it to $0.95, though we are not above the equilibrium rate. But then demand still outpace supply. But your understanding is setting it to $2 would be effective. Effective deadweight loss?
The issue is.
What is the equilibrium rate?
If the equilibrium rate is $1, employers are currently paying $0.50, then you are still below the equilibrium rate and setting it at $0.95 is still below the equlibrium rate. Your understanding or misunderstanding is that $0.50 is the equilibrium rate, but the fact is, we both don't know what is the equilibrium rate.
Unless you can give me the calculation for the equilibrium wage in Singapore.
The equilibrium wage or market clearing wage is DD for Labour = SS of Labour.
Demand for labour by the firms will depend on the firms' assessments of the contribution of the labour and the wages that the firms are willing to pay the workers and how many workers to employ.
The issue is that workers believe that firms PURPOSELY pay low wage for the workers despite the contribution of the labour for the production ie workers believe that firms are not paying them fair wage ie firms did not pay the workers the wage that can at least cover their cost of living.
While the firms INSIST that they have paid the workers according to the value of work contributed by the workers.
Supply of Labour by the workers will depend on the willingness and ability of the workers for the wages offered.
The issue is that cheap foreign workers are allowed to enter Singapore and hence there is a huge supply of cheap labour while local Singaporeans are not willing to work at this low wage as the low wage cannot cover their living expenses.
So, is there an equilibrium wage ?
Yes, there are firms who want to employ workers and there are workers who want to work at the market wage ie the equilibrium wage where DD for Labour = SS of Labour.
The issue here is that this equilibrium wage is considered too low by those Singaporeans who are not willing to work as the this low equilibrium wage cannot cover their living expenses AND also the biased views of the employers who only want to employ cheap and young foreign workers.
So, the issue here is that how to enable local Singaporeans to earn at least a wage that can cover their living expenses and yet the wage that will not lead to firms to cut down on workers or re-locate to other cheaper countries ?
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There is an equilibrium wage, but it keeps getting distorted by PAP adding more foreign workers in the labour pool.
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Originally posted by βÎτά:
There is an equilibrium wage, but it keeps getting distorted by PAP adding more foreign workers in the labour pool.
Indeed, the equilibrium wage will be lower and lower if the government keeps adding more foreign workers into the labour pool.
With the continuous huge influx of cheap foreign workers, the equilibirum wage will be lower and lower. The government SHOULD increase the quantum ie the amount of WORKFARE Income Supplment (WIS) (plus the workers' individual wages) to at least to be able to cover the workers' cost of living.
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I think all it's just talk abt productivity and efficiency. Because it's going to spend time & $$ for them!
They want instant results
If they still dun realise how acute e issue of replacing cheap manpower with say machinery for e long run, we're screwed.
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Originally posted by Seowlah:
Indeed, the equilibrium wage will be lower and lower if the government keeps adding more foreign workers into the labour pool.
With the continuous huge influx of cheap foreign workers, the equilibirum wage will be lower and lower. The government SHOULD increase the quantum ie the amount of WORKFARE Income Supplment (WIS) (plus the workers' individual wages) to at least to be able to cover the workers' cost of living.
Something like workfare has its dubious effects in raising the income levels of the poor. It also results in a lot of strain on the budget.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
I think all it's just talk abt productivity and efficiency. Because it's going to spend time & $$ for them!
They want instant results
If they still dun realise how acute e issue of replacing cheap manpower with say machinery for e long run, we're screwed.
Cheaper better faster.
Repeat 10000 times.
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the 10000th time become faster die cheaper better
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HONG KONG (MarketWatch) -- Hong Kong lawmakers agreed late Thursday on terms of the city's first-ever minimum wage law, setting the hourly minimum at $28 Hong Kong dollars ($3.61). The setting of the statutory minimum comes after months of consultation with labor and business groups over how much workers should be paid. Hong Kong's half elected, half appointed legislature passed a minimum-wage bill in July, bowing to public pressure after a scheme which invited business groups to agree to voluntary minimum wage rates for security guards and other workers met with poor participation. Labor groups in city had been seeking a minimum hourly rate of HK$33, though business groups said such a rate was too high and could lead to layoffs. The minimum wage rate will take effect May 1.
If Singapore set it, it could likely be $3.50 or $3.60 per hour too. Most of us probably earn more than $3.50 per hour. Those earning less are very likely to be in jobs that are easily replaceable by people or machines.
But it would never work in Singapore, because all a businessman have to do is to employ even more foreigners, and invest in machines which will be cheaper in the long run.This would also increase the employment cost, and being such a small economy, all that is needed to do is to pass the costs to the consumers.
What else could happen? More automated systems to replace humans. People like security guards could be cut down, and replaced with younger and more energetic ones, together with better technology. If you are going to pay more, might as well hire a younger and more energetic one right?
When desperation sets in, some would even offer to work below the minimum wage just to undercut and get a job. Why not?
I'm not sure how much toilet cleaners earn, but if a minimum wage was set, I would think that a numbered would be dropped while the cleaning frequency is reduced.While the above may or may not happen, I would also counter SDP's paragraph:Instead they promoted their party’s Workfare Income Supplement (WIS) Scheme which is effectively a programme to get older workers to continue working but for less pay. The Singapore Democrats pointed out how ineffective WIS was here.There's nothing wrong with getting older workers to continue working for less pay while getting WIS. With a minimum wage set, you need the older workers to continue working as well, though with more pay, but likely with no WIS.There's no efficiency in implementing both together; both have similar effects on the workers. But there will be a vast difference in effects on the job market as a whole.A minimum wage without WIS = transferring the responsibility to the corporate world. The WIS basically puts the problem into the government's hands. -
I don't support minimun wage.
We should implement maximun wage on the MPs and superscale civil servants.
Their wages should not be that high.
Singapore has too many "Tua Pek Kong" to feed.
Why we need so many generals and colonels?
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If the government wants to improve productivity, a minimum wage must exist. Simple as that. Otherwise, as usual, all this talk of productivity is meaningless, nevermind the usual "lowest common denominator" approach it adopts to anything.
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Originally posted by kira.sg:
I don't support minimun wage.
We should implement maximun wage on the MPs and superscale civil servants.
Their wages should not be that high.
Singapore has too many "Tua Pek Kong" to feed.
Why we need so many generals and colonels?
1 seat in parliament can already. LOL...
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Originally posted by Jiani:
I support mimim wage!
I support minimum wage too. -
Originally posted by SGVoice:
http://yoursdp.org/index.php/news/singapore/449…
Democrats rebut PAP minimum wage groupthink
Tuesday, 18 January 2011
Singapore DemocratsLast week in Parliament several PAP MPs demonstrated their awesome ability to engage in groupthink. They stepped up one by one to say how Minimum Wage will not work while blithely ignoring the fact that the policy is a key feature in developed economies all around the world.
Instead they promoted their party’s Workfare Income Supplement (WIS) Scheme which is effectively a programme to get older workers to continue working but for less pay. The Singapore Democrats pointed out how ineffective WIS was here.
We take this opprtunity to rebut some of the points that the MPs made about Minimum Wage and in the process continue to make our case for its introduction in Singapore.
‘Ms Josephine Teo: “From the perspective of the labour movement, growth in the last few years has been inclusive. Our tripartite approach works…As the economy grows, now is the best time to catch the wind and help low-wage Singaporeans do better and for Singapore to become even more inclusive.”
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It is patently untrue to say that Singapore’s economy is inclusive. For much of the last decade when the economy was booming, the income disparity increased every single year. (See figure on right) Even as the rich made their millions, the working poor saw themselves getting more and more impoverished.The PAP lifted not a finger to help these low-wage workers then. Now it expects us to believe that it is serious about helping them? Does the fact that the elections are around the corner have anything to do with this sudden demonstration of compassion?
‘Ms Denise Phua : “A minimum wage will become an additional cost of business paid by employers who in turn will either pass on the cost of business to their customers, causing further increase in the cost of living, or become more cautious especially in hiring those who are less skilled or able.”
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Increase in the cost of living is caused by the myriad of fees and fares that the PAP imposes on the people. It is also caused by the high rentals that businesses have to pay to an oligopoly. Office and business rentals are determined largely by the control of land and its sales which the PAP Government controls.If Ms Phua is genuinely concerned about not increaing the cost of living in Singapore, she would propose that her party stops jacking up land cost. She would also advocate that the GST be reduced and abolished for essential items, and that fees like public utility rates be decreased.
Instead she is using the passing-the-cost-on-to-consumers bogey to deny low-income workers a decent, lving wage. Minimum wage will put more money into the pockets of workers which will mean greater spending power for the people and the increased consumption will benefit businesses and, hence, the general economy.
‘Mr Heng Chee How: “You do that [introduce minimum wage], and if the workers become unemployed, you have just converted them from low-wage workers to no-wage workers. Who is (then) going to be responsible for these no-wage workers and their families? I don’t recommend minimum wage but best wage.”
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Mr Heng treads on dangerous ground when he talks about Singaporeans becoming unemployed. In the first place it is the PAP’s policy of bringing in cheap foreign labour enmasse that has led to countless Singaporeans being displaced from their jobs.Those who manage to find work have to compete with foreign workers who are willing to accept lower wages because they are transient workers with their families back in their home countries. Singaporeans, with their roots here, cannot survive on these wages.
This problem can be attenuated by the SDP’s proposal of a Singaporeans First Policy where businesses are required to demonstrate that the skills that they want to hire cannot be found among the locals before they are allowed to employ foreigners. This will stop our over-reliance on foreign workers and help Singaporeans secure proper paying jobs.
‘Mr Gan Kim Yong: “The impact will be worse during a recession because employers are more likely to retrench low-wage workers who are drawing the minimum wage as they cannot adjust their wages.”
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Our low-income workers are already not able to make ends meet with their measly wages. Their lives are a living hell with many being evicted from heir flats making them homeless. Many see no way out and end their misery by committing suicide. Singapore sees an average of more than one person committing suicide every single day.Others turn to seeking free food at temples or grabbing unfinished meals left behind by patrons at hawker centres. Social services see many families unable to cope with low wages in an expensive economy. And how many out of desperation turn to loan sharks or a life of crime?
Retrenched? They’d be happy if they survived while employed.
‘Mr Lim Swee Say: “While we allow a lot of foreign workers to enter Singapore, we’ve never done so at the expense of high unemployment in Singapore…”
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How does one rebut propaganda like this?Be our Supporters:
sian si ....
josesphine teo ??
dennise phua??
Heng chee how??
gam kim yong??
lim swee say ... i hear of/know
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Minimum wages can only be allowed to set Minister and President pay. Other than that, no one is allowed to have minimum wage.
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For a lay person, whatever economies or wage systems is useless if he is earning less than he needs to spend on essiential needs. That is the basic of economic for a lay person that consitute almost 70% of singaporean here, the rest are just nonsensical and play acting.
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Minimum wage is the sure way to ensure low wage workers are proptected. The other methods are all not going to work because firstly no one seems to know how they are being calculated and secondly they most often then not can easily be used to the workers disadvantage whenever those people in power see fit.
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For example if a worker earns $1000 per month we immediately know it is not enough to survive in Singapore. But those people in power do not want us to know and start grumbling so they tends to make simple things complecated. I never believe in making things complicated is good for ordinary people like us. Yes, it will be good for people like bankers which confuse you which the interest rates such that you probably can't even figure them out if you have a doctorate in maths.
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Lanjiao PAP ministers,Lanjiao LKY,Lanjiao LHL,Lanjiao boot-licker GCT,all are Lanjiao Lang.