Hong Kong sets Minimum Wage - What one Singaporean thinks
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there is one aspect of the minimum wage that all of you did not considered. Think about ......what would be the official minimum wage level? and look at the variance between Govt official salary vs official minimum wage.
It open a gaping hole in the middle.
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Govment should implement minimum wage AND workfare.
Minimum wage says " Pay the lowly educated so they can sustain a reasonable standard of living".
Workfare says" An incentive to keep the old in the workforce, and push employers to make CPF contribution". To the old and uneducated , it's " Meagre income is betta than no income". Eat bread never mind as long as you have a job and pays into CPF.
Many low income elderlies who are paid in cash/self employed are bypassing CPF contribution. This hole is leaking and it's just another feeble attempt to plug it.
Minimum wage does not reduce jobs, it increases disposable income for more people. Which in turn helps the economy. A business man cannot sell panties to a poor beggar woman with no money.
Workfare is only paid TWICE a year. The amount is "UP TO" $800cash per YEAR. ( Not per month).. that is about $66 per month. $2000 goes into CPF ( which is subject to minimum sum, making it UNTOUCHABLE for most low income earner anyway).
Why the govment don't want to implement Minimum wage ? I guess horrrr... depressed wages in the lower income jobs BENEFITS the middle-higher income workers. Gahmen people are which level ? You know I know lah. .. OK ? Good.
I am self-serving you see.
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If the value of a worker's work is not worth the cost of the worker's wages, should the employer employs the worker ? The answer should be NO unless the employer employs the worker out of pity or for other reasons.
Should a worker work if the wage earns cannot cover his or her expenses ? The answer should be NO unless he or she does not have money to meet the basic expenses eg food and shelter ?
Problem : If the worker does not have money for basic expenses eg food and shelter and yet the value of his or her work is not worth more than the worker's wage and no employer wants to employ the worker, what are the options ?
Options
1. cut down the expenses
2. increase the value of the worker's work by combining more job scopes
(suggested by jojobeach)
3. increase the productivity of the worker
4. make the employer to raise the wages
5. seek the government's help to raise the wages (minimum wage)
6. seek unemployment or social benefits if the worker's is eligible
7. seek the government's help to foot part of the worker's expenses (workfare)
8. move to another country where the worker can earn a wage that can cover his or
her daily expenses.
Which is the best and feasible option ?
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Originally posted by Devil7030:
If the value of a worker's work is not worth the cost of the worker's wages, should the employer employs the worker ? The answer should be NO unless the employer employs the worker out of pity or for other reasons.
Should a worker work if the wage earns cannot cover his or her expenses ? The answer should be NO unless he or she does not have money to meet the basic expenses eg food and shelter ?
Problem : If the worker does not have money for basic expenses eg food and shelter and yet the value of his or her work is not worth more than the worker's wage and no employer wants to employ the worker, what are the options ?
Options
1. cut down the expenses
2. increase the productivity of the worker
3. make the employer to raise the wages
4. seek the government's help to raise the wages (minimum wage)
5. seek unemployment or social benefits if the worker's is eligible
6. seek the government's help to foot part of the worker's expenses (workfare)
7. move to another country where the worker can earn a wage that can cover his or
her daily expenses.
Which is the best and feasible option ?
In this day and age, there is NO SUCH THING as a job that is not worth at least the minimum wage.
If you insist, name me one or two. If they truly do exist on their own, then combine the job scopes to make it worthy. Else get a machine to do it. Even a machine requires a mechanic who earns above miminum wage to maintain it.
So please, lame excuses are fashioned by lame people.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
In this day and age, there is NO SUCH THING as a job that is not worth at least the minimum wage.
If you insist, name me one or two. If they truly do exist on their own, then combine the job scopes to make it worthy. Else get a machine to do it. Even a machine requires a mechanic who earns above miminum wage to maintain it.
So please, lame excuses are fashioned by lame people.
Indeed, job scopes can be combined to make the job worth for the employer to employ the worker. The problem is that can the worker cope with the many work scope eg can a cleaner cope with the duties of cleaning and serving the customers at the coffeshop at the same time ?
It is easy to agree for the implementation of a minimum wage. The problem is that how to determine the minimum wage and on what criteria.
Minimum wage ? per month ? per day ? per hour ? per assignment ?
If the minimum wage is set too high, employers will find ways to re-invent the payments whereby the workers will still be paid lower than the high minimum wage.
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Originally posted by Devil7030:
Indeed, job scopes can be combined to make the job worth for the employer to employ the worker. The problem is that can the worker cope with the many work scope eg can a cleaner cope with the duties of cleaning and serving the customers at the coffeshop at the same time ?
It is easy to agree for the implementation of a minimum wage. The problem is that how to determine the minimum wage and on what criteria.
Minimum wage ? per month ? per day ? per hour ? per assignment ?
If the minimum wage is set too high, employers will find ways to re-invent the payments whereby the workers will still be paid lower than the high minimum wage.
A job scope that includes serving and cleaning tables ? Sure, it's call multi tasking dude, nothing new FYI. You drop the food on one table, then use the empty tray to collect empty cup and bowls from the next table.That's what a lot of waiters/waitresses do anyway.. any better examples ?
Minimum wage can be hourly or daily or per month. Depends on the type of job requirements and labour needs.
Labour intensive jobs that's traditionally foreign labour intensive need not be included in minimum wage law. Eg. Constructions/farmers/domestic helpers.
The criteria to determine minimum wage is based on cost of living in the country. Cost of basic housing, transportation, food and utilities expenses are same across the board. Doesn't matter if you are a cleaner or a computer technician or teacher or taxi driver.
FYI minimum wage is not a guideline, much like detering illegal workers, it's meant to deter exploitations and wage depression that increases our poverty population.
Unlike other first world countries where they practice collective bargaining, Singapore needs a viable protective policy for our low income workers. And this minimum wage is it.
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
Hi Parn,
Doesn't matter .... I have been made aware by eagle (Read a few posts before yours) of this "workfare bonus wage supplement" scheme that the government has implemented and it provides the equivalent of a minimum wage.
Kind Regards
Genie
Hi genie,
Workfare is a smoke bomb. Check out the CPF website, only households with housing of annual housing value of $11,000 and below are eligible. Based on that value, almost ALL Singaporeans living in HDB flats are disqualified from workfare. The other condition is the requirement to contribute to CPF and medisave. These low wage workers already do not have enough for living expenses, would they want their employer to contribute CPF? They rather strike a deal with their employer not to contribute CPF to get the full pay. An MP should ask in parliament how many Singaporeans are on workfare..
Kind Regards
Kilua
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Originally posted by Devil7030:
If the value of a worker's work is not worth the cost of the worker's wages, should the employer employs the worker ? The answer should be NO unless the employer employs the worker out of pity or for other reasons.
Should a worker work if the wage earns cannot cover his or her expenses ? The answer should be NO unless he or she does not have money to meet the basic expenses eg food and shelter ?
Problem : If the worker does not have money for basic expenses eg food and shelter and yet the value of his or her work is not worth more than the worker's wage and no employer wants to employ the worker, what are the options ?
Options
1. cut down the expenses
2. increase the value of the worker's work by combining more job scopes
(suggested by jojobeach)
3. increase the productivity of the worker
4. make the employer to raise the wages
5. seek the government's help to raise the wages (minimum wage)
6. seek unemployment or social benefits if the worker's is eligible
7. seek the government's help to foot part of the worker's expenses (workfare)
8. move to another country where the worker can earn a wage that can cover his or
her daily expenses.
Which is the best and feasible option ?
Can explain why MM earns $3 million annually even though he has doesn't really have any official duties?
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It's called nepotism. :lol:
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Originally posted by charlize:
Can explain why MM earns $3 million annually even though he has doesn't really have any official duties?
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/411252
He says so himself.
In case people think he still runs the country.
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I'm gonna have to agree that if our unemployment goes up significantly because of minimum wage laws, then major exploitation of lowly paid workers has taken place.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/views/story/0,4574,405917,00.html
According to this article, the authors argued that it might not be fair if minimum wage laws have been applied to Singaporeans and not the PR and foreigners. I think this is the real can of worms.
We've taken a huge influx of low-skilled laborers from a number of countries outside. That has benefited companies and even the government in terms of building projects and even maintenance. Cost of hiring these workers are low and if a minimum wage law comes in, the companies and even the government will end up spending more money. Sad to say, we've also joined the ranks of those who exploits third world countries for our own development.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
In this day and age, there is NO SUCH THING as a job that is not worth at least the minimum wage.
If you insist, name me one or two. If they truly do exist on their own, then combine the job scopes to make it worthy. Else get a machine to do it. Even a machine requires a mechanic who earns above miminum wage to maintain it.
So please, lame excuses are fashioned by lame people.
+1 to that.
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by kilua:
Hi genie,
Workfare is a smoke bomb. Check out the CPF website, only households with housing of annual housing value of $11,000 and below are eligible. Based on that value, almost ALL Singaporeans living in HDB flats are disqualified from workfare. The other condition is the requirement to contribute to CPF and medisave. These low wage workers already do not have enough for living expenses, would they want their employer to contribute CPF? They rather strike a deal with their employer not to contribute CPF to get the full pay. An MP should ask in parliament how many Singaporeans are on workfare..
Kind Regards
Kilua
haiz.... just when I was singing praises of Singapore's government.... I must be brought to a low again.Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
1) I'm gonna have to agree that if our unemployment goes up significantly because of minimum wage laws, then major exploitation of lowly paid workers has taken place.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/views/story/0,4574,405917,00.html
2) According to this article, the authors argued that it might not be fair if minimum wage laws have been applied to Singaporeans and not the PR and foreigners. I think this is the real can of worms.
We've taken a huge influx of low-skilled laborers from a number of countries outside. That has benefited companies and even the government in terms of building projects and even maintenance. Cost of hiring these workers are low and if a minimum wage law comes in, the companies and even the government will end up spending more money. Sad to say, we've also joined the ranks of those who exploits third world countries for our own development.
Good post!
I agree with point 1 wholeheartedly and the hypothesis in point 2 is very possible and I'm inclined to suspect it might be the case as well.
Kind Regards
Genie
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When economy bad and many pple are searching for jobs and are jobless, that is where employers will push the salary down to the min. Who cares whether that staff can survive or not.
And govt no power to control the salary give by the company too.
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Originally posted by likeyou:
1) When economy bad and many pple are searching for jobs and are jobless, that is where employers will push the salary down to the min. Who cares whether that staff can survive or not.
2) And govt no power to control the salary give by the company too.
Answer to Pt 1 is in Shotgun's post. I quote..
"I'm gonna have to agree that if our unemployment goes up significantly because of minimum wage laws, then major exploitation of lowly paid workers has taken place."
Answer to Pt 2 is the topic itself
.... what do you think a government is doing by setting up a minimum wage law.Need to read other peoples post also ok?
Kind Regards
Genie
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Nice posts, nice reads. There are so many restrictions and policies here and there that common folks like me wouldn't even have the time and energy to pour through everything.
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
Answer to Pt 1 is in Shotgun's post. I quote..
"I'm gonna have to agree that if our unemployment goes up significantly because of minimum wage laws, then major exploitation of lowly paid workers has taken place."
Answer to Pt 2 is the topic itself
.... what do you think a government is doing by setting up a minimum wage law.Need to read other peoples post also ok?
Kind Regards
Genie
Thanks Genie.Nothing can the govt do...but can only advise and set rules for the companies? Ultimately, companies have the final say in the end.
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Originally posted by charlize:
Can explain why MM earns $3 million annually even though he has doesn't really have any official duties?
firstly, are u so sure he earns 3 millions annually only?? -
Back to square one, do we did a minimum wage? Dun compare with other countries, just singapore alone, do we really need a minimum wage to run this country wage issue? My take is no, I have alway a free market with a free float on wages.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
firstly, are u so sure he earns 3 millions annually only??
Originally posted by charlize:Can explain why MM earns $3 million annually even though he has doesn't really have any official duties?
I see... so you're saying that MM might be earning more than 3 million annually and if that's true than charlize is factually wrong and therefore her question is moot?
What if charlize were to comment "Can explain why MM earns $3 million more or less annually even though he has doesn't really have any official duties?
Like that better for you?
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Back to square one, do we did a minimum wage? Dun compare with other countries, just singapore alone, do we really need a minimum wage to run this country wage issue? My take is no, I have alway a free market with a free float on wages.
Originally posted by angel7030:and there is this uncles about 49 yo came and ask for job as a general helper in my family catering business, saying that he is poor and cannot find a job, we employed him under re-employment of older worker contract. He told us he got a old mother, 3 kids and a housewife to take care for..just got retrenched in some logistic company, so we offered him the job at $1200 with all the benefits. As he walk out of my brother office, held up his iphone, and a minute later, a young beautiful prc gal came over, hold his hand and together walk down the street to hail for a taxi. You call that poor?? or you call that making yourself poor??
Back to square one.... are you against minimum wage law because you felt cheated the uncle could afford iphone and beautiful young prc girl with $1200 salary and felt you could have given less?
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by angel7030:
and there is this uncles about 49 yo came and ask for job as a general helper in my family catering business, saying that he is poor and cannot find a job, we employed him under re-employment of older worker contract. He told us he got a old mother, 3 kids and a housewife to take care for..just got retrenched in some logistic company, so we offered him the job at $1200 with all the benefits. As he walk out of my brother office, held up his iphone, and a minute later, a young beautiful prc gal came over, hold his hand and together walk down the street to hail for a taxi. You call that poor?? or you call that making yourself poor??
Catering business?
Is that what they are calling prostitution these days?
Who can confirm the trash that comes out of your mouth, sometimes overnight sperm spews out when you speak.