Signs that Singapore is coming to an end soon
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do u think the empire of love will last as well....
as in Lord Byron's great poem:
Between two worlds life hovers like a star,
‘Twixt night and morn, upon the horizon’s verge.
How little do we know that which we are!
How less what we may be! The eternal surge
Of time and tide rolls on, and bears afar
Our bubbles; as the old burst, new emerge,
Lash’d from the foam of ages; while the graves
Of empires heave but like some passing waves.王å� - 拜伦
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Originally posted by Charpere:
Not everything is about Singapore, not everything is about the Singaporeans...
Who are our feverish nationalists here referring to as "us," "Singaporeans," "we," "local," and "native?
Chinese, Malay, Indian? or the Tangren only?
The understanding of our initial poster is flawed regarding LKY's comment--you see, you do not take everything as stated in English, it goes for other languages as well. Every language is capable of its own humor, nuances, sarcasm, maybe you should ask LKY himself or more native speakers of English to get what LKY meant with his statement.
Personal industry and virtue may have brought us into better life circumstances, but is it all our own? Maybe we should look at what others before us have done for us. Consider yourself being born in Myanmar, the Philippines, Bangladesh, would you attain the status you have today? In such circumstances, individuals would have to work hard, twice, thrice, a hundred times even in order to equal the "Singapore lifestyle." Human beings are not equal in the same way that opportunities in life aren't.
It has been a cause for concern among the Americans and Europeans (Ang Mohs) that the rapid increase in China's wealth is somewhat unhealthy for the Chinese people. Who can blame them? Forty years of economic progress in Singapore and yet its people are not showing modest signs of emotional maturity. It is never enough to earn the buck, one also needs to know how to 1) use it, 2) keep some of it, 3) make it grow, 4) realize its true value--economically and socially. Europe with all its sensibilities is aghast with the behavior of Singaporeans, because the latter are disproving one important direct linear relationship: as living conditions improve to be more conducive for human living, so must our behavior be. A sense of humanity may be lacking in Singapore, and who is most guilty? I don't know, we should ask our nationalists here, is it across all lines or is it particular to one?
You may talk like the financiers, economic geniuses that you are, good schooling, good teachers, but realize that even economics is a social science. Discussions on human populations, their different qualities and subsequent interactions started the ball rolling, even before stocks and derivatives came into the picture. Do we really need a gargantuan GDP for so few people? Apparently yes, because it is what the current [global economic] system dictates, even if the wealth is more ephemereal than physical. Singapore does not need the foreigners? Hmmmmm... let me paint a picture:
you feel disadvantaged now, maybe in a few years that break will come for you (don't be bored waiting, you're a Singaporean, your chances are way better than a Myanmarese, Filipino, or Bangladeshi)
congratulations Mr. Manager, so your wife wants to eat at that swanky restaurant, who's going to serve her? the Singaporean not that better off
wow that food attendant made it to branch manager, no matter there are disadvantaged populations, still Singapore citizens though
shiok! Singapore is filled to the brim with opportunities, even that one has made it to manager, maybe we should make robots or train monkeys to serve all of us?
now multiply this situation to the one selling your wife a handbag in the future, cleaning your house, parking your car, servicing your utilities, accepting your huge bank deposits, advicing you on your investments, refining the petrol for your benz, cleaning up the air after you. consulting you on your appearance so it actually reflects your net worth...
Singapore is not the Philippines, it's not Indonesia, it's not Cambodia, it cannot sustain 70 years serving you and the economy with pure blooded Singaporeans, if there is one; especially since everyone wants to be the "boss."
You say the government is unfair, favoring cheap and unskilled (how sure are you about this?) labor. Prioritizing this and that, what about the beggars, the Singaporeans who are still poor, and you say you want real democracy? Give me a democratic society without a poor individual, without a disadvantaged citizen. Equality is never the right course for any form of society simply because it is impractical, even abstract. Egalitarian? maybe. Equitable? yes. TO EACH WHAT IS APPROPRIATE FOR HIM/HERSELF. Your Singapore government has given you half of the silver spoon dear nationalists, it is up to you to forge the other half. The foundations and scaffolding have been made for you, it's up to you to finish up the house. Don't make me give another analogy.
The early philosopher talked of men of gold, men of lead, men of iron, that everyone must fulfill the role their substance dictated in order to create a harmonious society. Now this goes against self-determination and the Americans and atheists won't like that. So let us modify it in such a way that an individual determines for himself his own substance. One thing is certain, not everyone will be made of gold or make himself out of gold. No matter the arrogance, a person is still capable of self-realization, he/she knows what he/she is really made of.
Try to be more abstract, foreigners outnumbering you on the bus? Imagine them taking over the government and subjugating you, not competing for that job and that salary because it automatically goes to them. I can forgive you for the lapses in understanding English ( which somehow is still foreign in this country), but to see things with no insight whatsoever, no empathy, no deeper understanding--a chastising you are not in for, but lamenting for your immaturity, ignorance, and hubris for the welfare of other people.This post say these things.
you are an elite. 1st class citizen.
you chastise 3rd class citizens.
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some people here are getting hurt...
is he/she an outspoken member of the political opposition?
I'm sorry but your (s_r's) statements should be repeated whilst looking at the mirror, you have done what you say regarding foreigners, at least my statements are true, don't say it's baseless and I have a skewed perception of Singaporeans, just because it is not in tune with how you want the emotions, and realizations to flow in this discussion
again, "Singaporeans?" chinese and malay and indian? or Tangren only?
and sorry to the poster above, I am a clerk, earning 300sgd more than the minimum, you can say I am an elitist, maybe intellectually or emotionally, but I am not chastising 3rd class citizens (there are only CITIZENS)--I am offering you another viewpoint, a possibility that maybe not all you think is true--same with me
just because you oppose doesn't mean, you have to throw everything and close up your minds, there is a bigger world, and it may not always care about your musings, simply because they are far worse than you are
join me and I'll share with you an enlightened opposition and an objective critique of government
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Well well who is the one getting hurt.
Hearing and listening are not the same. You read but you do not see.
Yes the rheorics is there are only citizens, but in reality some are more. Or at least think they are more.
You missed the people point.
Do you not realise that that the government is increasing seeing citizens as workers and not people.
I like Singapore under LKY and GCT, but not under LHL.
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Originally posted by Charpere:
some people here are getting hurt...
is he/she an outspoken member of the political opposition?
I'm sorry but your (s_r's) statements should be repeated whilst looking at the mirror, you have done what you say regarding foreigners, at least my statements are true, don't say it's baseless and I have a skewed perception of Singaporeans, just because it is not in tune with how you want the emotions, and realizations to flow in this discussion
again, "Singaporeans?" chinese and malay and indian? or Tangren only?
and sorry to the poster above, I am a clerk, earning 300sgd more than the minimum, you can say I am an elitist, maybe intellectually or emotionally, but I am not chastising 3rd class citizens (there are only CITIZENS)--I am offering you another viewpoint, a possibility that maybe not all you think is true--same with me
just because you oppose doesn't mean, you have to throw everything and close up your minds, there is a bigger world, and it may not always care about your musings, simply because they are far worse than you are
join me and I'll share with you an enlightened opposition and an objective critique of government
At least your statements are true? Don't make me laugh. Define true. Calling others bigots and ingrates is definitely a prejudice to me, when you have no possibility to even determine the types of people in this forum, much more going forward with such a statement about everyone being ingrates and bigots.
Looking into the mirror? It's so funny. Remember, when you point a finger and accuse others, 3 fingers and a thumb point back at yourself.
Enlightenment? I doubt you are even there. Enlightened people would not make such biased and baseless remarks.
Nah, no interest in your myopic (not enlightened) view of the state of affairs in Singapore. There are many people way more qualified than you.
With your way of starting life in sgforums (ie making baseless and offensive remarks), you are already no longer credible, and are fated to forever be a small insignificant person. No one will listen to your views, no matter how good they are.
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any sign that old grandpa Lee is giving his money to all singaporean?
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firecracker,
think u need to bend over n let himdo ya!
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so they're good? :)
haha, passing yourself as the great judge of statements, is everyone here speaking in such beautiful lines, listen but, read but, point your fingers... goes to show from which line the people here come from...
even if the content is vitriol--if it is true, then it must burn, I'm sorry for hurting some people here, even I do not have a monopoly for nice words and righteous statements
you can start asking for unbiased and broad-minded statements once you do it yourself, it may go as long as you want it, after all pingpong is your forte?
qualifications? now that you cannot say for certain, I'm not even saying that I am better than all of you, but if that's how you see it, thank you, i guess...
how to objectify things so as to pass your standards? i don't know, perhaps a survey of people here, of how 'Singaporeans' behave, well I do behave rather well, I just can't guarantee the others--those who litter, those who mistreat their maids, those who can't even utter "excuse me," well let me give you a phrase smilar to your wonderful words EDUCATION IS NOT THE SAME AS UPBRINGING
and please don't make yourselves the heroes of the so-called 3rd class citizens, you're indulging hatred instead of enlightening them, you are not the intelligentsia if all you want to do (or know) is to stir up things...
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Originally posted by Charpere:
1) Not everything is about Singapore, not everything is about the Singaporeans...
Who are our feverish nationalists here referring to as "us," "Singaporeans," "we," "local," and "native?
Chinese, Malay, Indian? or the Tangren only?
2) The understanding of our initial poster is flawed regarding LKY's comment--you see, you do not take everything as stated in English, it goes for other languages as well. Every language is capable of its own humor, nuances, sarcasm, maybe you should ask LKY himself or more native speakers of English to get what LKY meant with his statement.
3) Personal industry and virtue may have brought us into better life circumstances, but is it all our own? 4) Maybe we should look at what others before us have done for us. Consider yourself being born in Myanmar, the Philippines, Bangladesh, would you attain the status you have today? In such circumstances, individuals would have to work hard, twice, thrice, a hundred times even in order to equal the "Singapore lifestyle." Human beings are not equal in the same way that opportunities in life aren't.
It has been a cause for concern among the Americans and Europeans (Ang Mohs) that the rapid increase in China's wealth is somewhat unhealthy for the Chinese people. Who can blame them? Forty years of economic progress in Singapore and yet its people are not showing modest signs of emotional maturity. It is never enough to earn the buck, one also needs to know how to 1) use it, 2) keep some of it, 3) make it grow, 4) realize its true value--economically and socially. Europe with all its sensibilities is aghast with the behavior of Singaporeans, 5) because the latter are disproving one important direct linear relationship: as living conditions improve to be more conducive for human living, so must our behavior be. A sense of humanity may be lacking in Singapore, and who is most guilty? I don't know, we should ask our nationalists here, is it across all lines or is it particular to one?
You may talk like the financiers, economic geniuses that you are, good schooling, good teachers, but realize that even economics is a social science. Discussions on human populations, their different qualities and subsequent interactions started the ball rolling, even before stocks and derivatives came into the picture. Do we really need a gargantuan GDP for so few people? Apparently yes, because it is what the current [global economic] system dictates, even if the wealth is more ephemereal than physical. Singapore does not need the foreigners? Hmmmmm... let me paint a picture:
you feel disadvantaged now, maybe in a few years that break will come for you (don't be bored waiting, you're a Singaporean, your chances are way better than a Myanmarese, Filipino, or Bangladeshi)
congratulations Mr. Manager, so your wife wants to eat at that swanky restaurant, who's going to serve her? the Singaporean not that better off
wow that food attendant made it to branch manager, no matter there are disadvantaged populations, still Singapore citizens though
shiok! Singapore is filled to the brim with opportunities, even that one has made it to manager, maybe we should make robots or train monkeys to serve all of us?
now multiply this situation to the one selling your wife a handbag in the future, cleaning your house, parking your car, servicing your utilities, accepting your huge bank deposits, advicing you on your investments, refining the petrol for your benz, cleaning up the air after you. consulting you on your appearance so it actually reflects your net worth...
Singapore is not the Philippines, it's not Indonesia, it's not Cambodia, it cannot sustain 70 years serving you and the economy with pure blooded Singaporeans, if there is one; especially since everyone wants to be the "boss."
You say the government is unfair, favoring cheap and unskilled (how sure are you about this?) labor. Prioritizing this and that, what about the beggars, the Singaporeans who are still poor, and you say you want real democracy? Give me a democratic society without a poor individual, without a disadvantaged citizen. 6) Equality is never the right course for any form of society simply because it is impractical, even abstract. Egalitarian? maybe. Equitable? yes. TO EACH WHAT IS APPROPRIATE FOR HIM/HERSELF. Your Singapore government has given you half of the silver spoon dear nationalists, it is up to you to forge the other half. The foundations and scaffolding have been made for you, it's up to you to finish up the house. Don't make me give another analogy.
The early philosopher talked of men of gold, men of lead, men of iron, that everyone must fulfill the role their substance dictated in order to create a harmonious society. Now this goes against self-determination and the Americans and atheists won't like that. So let us modify it in such a way that an individual determines for himself his own substance. One thing is certain, not everyone will be made of gold or make himself out of gold. No matter the arrogance, a person is still capable of self-realization, he/she knows what he/she is really made of.
7) Try to be more abstract, foreigners outnumbering you on the bus? Imagine them taking over the government and subjugating you, not competing for that job and that salary because it automatically goes to them. 8) I can forgive you for the lapses in understanding English ( which somehow is still foreign in this country), but to see things with no insight whatsoever, no empathy, no deeper understanding--a chastising you are not in for, but lamenting for your immaturity, ignorance, and hubris for the welfare of other people.
1) I think Singaporeans are only interested in Singapore... the only time its interested in other countries is for comparisons.2) If the target audiences understanding of LKYs statement is skewed. Then the speaker has failed.
3) SMLJ?
4) True. But I do believe in striving forwards not backwards and thus comparisons with better countries would be the way. If I were to compare with countries worse off, we should all retire since we would not reach the lifestyle of impoverished countries within one generation.
5) Blame meritocracy, elitists, the small landspace and dense population.
6) Equality is the right thing to do and we should always strive for it. Just because it is difficult to attain or "unrealistic" as you put it should not deter the basic fundamental to strive for it. It is in the national anthem of Singapore I believe.
7) That is what they are lamenting about... given that is an abstract case.
8) You are forgiven for not reaching your target audience with your shakespearean English which maybe native to your country but alien to Singapore. Whatever the case, the choice to allow more foreigners into whichever country should only be made AFTER the consideration of the welfare of the ORIGINAL country's citizens. That ...given more insight also ensures the welfare of the foreigners that made it into the country and maintains the social balance in Singapore.
Kind Regards
Genie...
the Troll
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Originally posted by Fire Cracker:
any sign that old grandpa Lee is giving his money to all singaporean?
yeah, this coming national day or near election, he may drop off some kind of rebates back to you as goodies. But dun take him as santa claus of the east ya -
Originally posted by Fcukpap:
do u think the empire of love will last as well....
as in Lord Byron's great poem:
Between two worlds life hovers like a star,
‘Twixt night and morn, upon the horizon’s verge.
How little do we know that which we are!
How less what we may be! The eternal surge
Of time and tide rolls on, and bears afar
Our bubbles; as the old burst, new emerge,
Lash’d from the foam of ages; while the graves
Of empires heave but like some passing waves.王å� - 拜伦
wha, what era already, still got poem meh?? now all lady gaga liao
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Singapore is really coming to an end. starting at the manufacturing sector. i see lots of labor they everyday compain salary low. but tey don;t see that's the reason why they are here. singapore should really look into hiring those that is keen to work and can serve our cmpanies, no whinners and every only look for a room with aircon and sit inside adjust the accon high high but put on a sweater later.
give them on computer they happy like fuck when the model is obsolete already.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
wha, what era already, still got poem meh?? now all lady gaga liao
Hi ANgel. what is lady gag? you live at Woodlands? where you live. i always ask this question. but don;t answer me you live at friends' place. i use this answer all the time. -
Have you an idea of how big Singapore's economy is today, both internal and external?
Maybe to some of you, Singapore's economy is as big as its size.
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There is no such thing as a 13% growth while having negative productivity growth. This is temporary, fake, and a marketing ploy caused by buying of military jets, building of new MRT lines, building of resorts, and the stimulus package and immigration by sheer numbers. SG is so small its easy to manipulate the figures you know.. elections coming soon too
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GDP up, But no cheer heard
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Indonesia chafes at graft ’safe haven’ in Singapore
SINGAPORE promotes itself as a model of financial integrity. But, officials in Jakarta say, the wealthy city-state is a haven for some of the most corrupt Indonesians and their ill-gotten gains.
Singapore denies that it turns a blind eye to dirty money and says that if sufficient evidence is provided, it is ready to take “swift and necessary action” against corruption suspects.But Indonesia’s Deputy Attorney General Darmono said: “Singapore is the most strategic country for corruptors to run away to.
“It’s geographically the closest to Indonesia and the policy of the Singaporean government enables corruptors to live there,” he told AFP.
Precise information on the extent of the illegal wealth allegedly smuggled out of Indonesia to Singapore is hard to find due to the small republic’s strict bank secrecy laws and the sensitivity of the subject.
But a report by Indonesia’s financial intelligence unit in late 2006 said around 200 fugitives from Indonesian state debt were residing there.
Three years ago extradition requests were lodged with Singapore for 15 corruption suspects, but the process has stalled due to complications surrounding a 2007 extradition treaty, Indonesian officials said.
In a recent update to lawmakers, Darmono said most of 18 suspects currently subject to extradition requests over corruption were hiding in the city-state.
Another 10 had fled abroad, mostly to Singapore, but were not subject to extradition requests, he added.
The suspects include bankers who siphoned off hundreds of millions of dollars in state bailout funds during the 1997-1998 Asian financial crisis, and tycoons of illegal logging, according to official and independent sources.
“They are living the life there. Their lifestyle in Singapore is above the average,” Indonesia Corruption Watch activist Emerson Yuntho said.
Arif Havas Oegroseno, director general for law and international treaties at the foreign ministry, said the proceeds from corruption were more than enough to fund lavish lifestyles in Singapore.
“As they’ve invested huge sums of stolen money, which are increasing in value over time, they no longer need to work,” he said.
The Indonesian Supreme Court convicted businessman Djoko Sugiarto Tjandra on June 11 last year for embezzling Rp546 billion (US$60 million) of state funds linked to bank bailouts in 1999.
Like other suspects before him, he fled to Singapore on the eve of his conviction and is now the target of Indonesia’s latest request for extradition, Attorney General Hendarman Supandji said.
A spokeswoman for Singapore’s Attorney-General’s Chambers did not comment on Tjandra’s case.
“Requests for mutual legal assistance are confidential,” she said.
On March 25, Indonesian officials reported that Gayus Tambunan, a 30-year-old tax official wanted in connection with a suspicious Rp25 billion in his bank account, had fled the country for Singapore.
He was apprehended there a few days later by Indonesian police, prompting questions from officials and journalists in Jakarta about why this suspect was so easy to repatriate when others continued to live freely in Singapore.
“Businessmen have a wide reach to anywhere; they have no boundaries. Civil servants have limited reach,” explained Attorney General Supandji.
Another fugitive is Anggoro Widjojo, a businessman who police allege bribed officials to win a forestry ministry contract.
He initially fled to China but police and graft investigators said that when they wanted to talk to him last year, he was in Singapore.
Indonesia’s anti-corruption watchdog – the Corruption Eradication Commission – accuses him of launching a long-distance campaign through his Jakarta-based brother, Anggodo, to frame investigators probing his case.
“Our concern is that Indonesia often makes the list of countries with high corruption levels. But there are other countries with low corruption levels that become the places of residence for Indonesian corruptors,” Oegroseno said.
Indonesian economist and politician Dradjad Wibowo estimated that up to $120 billion worth of “grey money” from Indonesia had flowed through Singapore, despite that state’s clear laws against money laundering.
“More than half of that money is funds from corruption, finance-related crime or other crimes such as illegal logging,” he said.
“We hope Singapore will show goodwill but it can’t claim to be one of the world’s cleanest and best governed countries while still existing as a bolthole for Indonesian corruptors.”
The situation has stoked frustration among senior Indonesian officials for years, but they appear to be reluctant to speak out about it for fear of riling Singapore’s leadership.
When the frustration does boil over, they accuse Singapore of undermining an Asian neighbour’s fight against corruption – deemed vital to Indonesia’s economic and democratic development – in order to enrich its banking sector.
“The country’s income comes mainly from selling (financial) services, and with more money floating around it has the opportunity to strengthen its economy,” said Darmono, the deputy attorney general.
“It tries to gather as much foreign capital as possible. Unfortunately, the incoming funds include ‘illegal funds.’”
Then-vice-president Jusuf Kalla was blunt in a 2007 interview with the Financial Times. “They’re thinking on the business side… That’s all it is. It strengthens Singapore’s economy,” he said.
Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa avoids such stridency, but told AFP he planned to hold “informal talks” with Singaporean leaders about the issue later this year.
“What we want to be focusing on is not necessarily the legal instrument but more the political commitment,” he said, referring to the long-delayed extradition treaty.
He added that Indonesia believed Singapore recognised “the importance of dealing with these cases” and helping its neighbour to “enforce its core positions” against corruption.
Singaporean officials bristle at the suggestion the regional financial hub’s integrity is being muddied by illegal loggers, dodgy tax officials and shady businessmen from across the Malacca Strait.
“Singapore takes a serious view of crimes committed in Singapore and will not tolerate any criminal or illicit activities being conducted through Singapore,” the spokeswoman for the state’s Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau said.
“In regard to foreign corruption fugitives, as long as sufficient evidence is provided to show that money laundering or any other offence has been committed in Singapore, the law enforcement authorities will take swift and necessary action to investigate and/or seize assets.”
Indeed, Transparency International ranks Singapore as one of the cleanest countries in the world – and Indonesia as one of the grubbiest.
Singapore was the world’s third cleanest country on Transparency’s corruption perceptions index for 2009, the only Asian nation in the top 10. Indonesia was a lowly 111th.
Under Singapore’s Corruption, Drug Trafficking and other Serious Crimes (Confiscation of Benefits) Act, any person who knows or suspects that property may have come from criminal conduct is obliged to report this information.
But a 2008 report by the Financial Action Task Force (FATF), an inter-governmental body tasked with developing international policies to fight money laundering and terrorist financing, rated Singapore as only “partially compliant” with its recommendations.
It said “no enforceable powers have been exercised to require financial institutions to apply stringent or additional … counter-measures” in relation to money from countries that do not abide by FATF standards.
Singapore’s money-laundering laws were “not effectively implemented” and there was a focus on domestic cases, leaving foreigners largely unmolested, it said.
The Monetary Authority of Singapore said the report “affirmed the high standards” of Singapore’s anti-money laundering regime and rated the state on a par with Britain and the United States.
“In particular, the integrity of Singapore’s financial system is safeguarded by our rigorous customer due diligence measures as well as clear and efficient process for mutual legal assistance,” a spokeswoman said.
“These procedures are applied to both local as well as foreign customers.”
But in a study released in December on illegal logging in Indonesia, Human Rights Watch described Singapore as a “safe haven” for cashed-up Indonesian corruption fugitives.
It said that while Jakarta bore the main responsibility for requesting assistance and pursuing cases, Singapore had to “ensure that its own banking and anti-money laundering regulations are rigorously enforced”.
Human Rights Watch added that Singapore had an international duty to ensure it did not allow its banking system – the cornerstone of Southeast Asian finance – to be used to wash dirty money.
“Although proud of its strong ratings on fighting corruption domestically, Singapore in particular is often used as a safe haven by business tycoons fleeing law enforcement in Indonesia,” said the report, entitled “Wild Money”.
“Corrupt fugitives from justice continue to reside peacefully and house their assets unmolested in Singapore.”
Indonesia’s parliament has not ratified the extradition treaty because of Singapore’s insistence on linking it to defence ties, officials in Jakarta said.
Foreign Minister Natalegawa said the pact was in “abeyance” due to “complications in the way it was presented and the way the discussions developed”.
“That notwithstanding, there is still room for cooperation between our two governments,” he added.
By Alvin Darlanika Soedarjo
Agence France-Presse
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