Give us HDB FLat AT COST, Not 30yrs Mortgage Enslavement
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Originally posted by Fatum:
okie .... great ....
so Mr Goh ... if, say, you were to looking at selling your HDB flat, would you be willing to sell it back to the HDB at the price you got it at .... or to sell it to another couple at the same price you got it at ?
I suppose not .......
and that's the flip side of the coin .....
if you were looking at buying a house now, of course you'd be moaning and bitching about the prices .... but if you were already a house owner, like so many other Singaporeans, would you not be overjoyed at the high prices now ? And that's the conundrum here, people who were looking at buying a flat would be bitching about high prices, but once they transition from a home buyer to a home owner, they'd be bitching about prices going lower on them, depreciating their asset ! Ironic isn't it ?
I am a property agent on the weekends, and while it's true enough that there were some crazy HDB deals recently, you don't have to be one of those foreign suckers that pay 200-300k COV premiums to get a resale flat. Many of the potential clients I come across have a bad case of keeping up with the joneses. A couple earning only 5k + a month combined, shouldn't be looking at 600k+ flats in the first place. People like these have no one but themselves to blame when they discover that they've overstretched themselves ... Before I even show them any properties I'd try to sit them down and work out some sums with them but they'd go AHHH ! and say can one lah, or say "I die die one only want this estate and nowhere else !" ... What can anyone do for these people ?
And of course, Singapore is only so big, if you want this and want that, want good schools, MRT, close to the city easy commute quiet neighbourhood, then be prepared to pay ! This is market forces at work, and unfortunately we are not north korea. And of course, even if the men-in-white promises everyone a roof over their heads, that doesn't mean everyone gets a 5 room high floor HDB flat with an MRT nearby but not close enough to be noisy, with a branded school within walking distance, markets and and shops 10 minutes away, right next to their parents, and want it cheap when they were buying it, but want it to be pricey when they want to sell it ! Ai pee, ai chee, ai tua liap nee ? Perhaps only when buying durians !! Anyone want the good life, then be prepared to work hard for it. I work hard for mine.
There ARE still cheap flats around, if anyone actually engages a good agent (*ahem !), or actually bother to look beyond what they perceive to be their "must haves". And if anyone actually bothers to plough through the HDB policies and grant guidelines, you'd discover that while our goverment has goofed up on a lot of things, the HDB and our housing policy is not quite one of those.
And for thitsose aspiring home owners out there. Here's a basic guideline, if your combined monthly CPF ordinary account contributions cannot cover your monthly loan payments, then you're overstretched, and the flat you're looking at is too expensive for you, look for a cheaper place, please !
Of course, if Mr Goh is willing to help out another needy Singaporean couple and sell his HDB house for cheap, at below valuation, I'd be most willing to help, I would waive my side of the agent fees even.
Another housing agent talking.... yawnz.....
Sure, the higher the value, the bigger your commision hor ?
More people sell their flats means more business for you hor ?
At that kind of price , its expected for people to want value for money.
If you pay $200 for a durian, you'd expect golden seeds inside.
Even the new flats in ulu places are already overpriced, why shouldn't people expect good amenities ?
The problem is not with the people, but the sale price of new/resale flats are UNREALISTIC.
My mama says "Never trust a sales person, especially a lazy one."
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Originally posted by goh meng seng:
Why should I be selling my flat? How many percentage of Singaporeans going to sell their flats?
Furthermore, there are TWO markets; resale market and new flat market. I am NOT advocating the government to intervene in resale market. The government HDB is the MONOPOLY supplier of new flats; i.e. they can control the prices of these new flats. Won't it be great for Singaporeans to buy at cost price from HDB but sell at market price in the resale market? ;)
Goh Meng Seng
Mr Goh, have you actually been checking out on the prices of brand new flats from the HDB ?
discounting "prime" BTOs like dawson, there ARE very cheap flats to be had direct from the HDB. Case in point. My fiance and I, we were just successful in a BTO exercise at segar grove. We got ourselves a 4 bedroom flat. The price for a four bedroom unit there, according to the list in our invitation letter, ranges from only 215k to 248k, before rebates. And even in other new BTO estates like woodlands and sengkang, like what one of my friends got, the prices is still quite a bit less than 300k, That is to say, the prices of the average brand new HDB flat is almost half of what a resale flat costs nowadays.
Do you think that's too much to pay for a brand new four room HDB flat ?
And of course, it is unrealistic to earmark a brand new flat for every new couple starting out, our limited landmass and the dynamics of society demands it to be so. Imagine this, suppose the average family starts out, requiring a brand new flat from the goverment, they have three kids, in time when they grow up, they'll each start up their own families too, requiring three more brand new flats, is this more than exponential growth in housing requirement realistic, or tenable ? of course not ! And when the parents depart this plane, what becomes of the flat ? So there'll always be a pool of resale flats available on the open market. Some people upgrade from HDB to private, some people downgrade to HDB, some people buy a bigger flat as their financial situation improves, some people exchange a bigger flat for a smaller one when their children leaves the nest, some people chose to monetize their flats and move into a smaller one etc etc. Someone would always be buying and selling, even if you are not, Mr Goh. This is simply social dynamics at work.
And let us keep in mind that HDB flats are not created equal, even within the same block, a top floor unit would be much more desirable than a 2nd floor unit, a west facing unit less desirable than one that faces the morning sun, a new estate 5 minutes from town would be more desirable than one at, say, sembawang or woodlands. And they are all assets of different values, carrying different price tags on the resale market. How do we make an equitable distribution of these assets, if the HDB were to flip them all at cost price ? Do you think it is fair, to make 2nd floor unit fellows pay the same price as the top floor unit chaps, when the top floor unit chap would end up with a more valuable asset and get more for his flat on the resale market than the 2nd floor chap ? Do you think it is fair, to make the chaps at sembawang pay the same price for their flat as the chaps at dawson, when the dawson chaps would be able to flip their houses for twice at much on the resale market as the sembawang chaps ? Premiums and price differentiation exist for a reason. People should be and are willing to pay a premium on the perceived values of their purchases, and rightly, this includes housing as well. like I said above, we are not north korea.
And just to offer people who thinks the grass is always greener on the other side another perspective, here's a story.
I studied in Canada and worked for some time there as a software developer for a telco company after my graduation, my starting pay was C$48k a year, a decent starting graduate wage and more than the average wage there. However, my provincial and federal income tax rate came up to around 38% a year ! with GST at 14% ! I paid as much income tax there in a month than what my father paid here in a year ! So by the time I got my monthly paycheck, my pay's not much different from the take home of a decent graduate in Singapore. Minus a car loan (unlike here, actually neccessary cos you don't want to be taking a bus at -40 celcius weather, and there's no MRT), minus the housing rentals and heat and hydro and living expenses, and I realized I was worse off than my peers in Singapore. And of course, they don't have an HDB in Canada. A schoolmate of mine just bought a property there for 480k at the beginning of the year, but considering the income tax rates, it's no wonder why banks there routinely offer 35 to 40 year mortgages ! And her city's considered cheap, btw, compared to say, vancouver. Of course, there's no CPF ordinary account contributions for you to pay off your mortgage without squeezing your current income, so everything comes out of your paycheck. There are also no preferential HDB loan rates, the commercial rates are also almost double of here, so even a measly 250k mortgage for a hovel of a property beside the ghetto there would cost you more than $1.5k a month over 40 years. How's that for enslavement, Mr Goh ? Guess why most ang mohs pack their own lunch to work there ? And of course, whenever I drove by the inner city ghettos and see the drug pushers and parasitic druggies and bums being fed by the goverment with 38% of my hard earned paycheck ......................
These are some of the reason why Singapore is still my home, after all that time away.
Do I, as a part time property agent, think the resale HDB market to be high right now ? Yes I do, though COVs bordering on lunacy are the exceptions rather than the rule, and though there is a definite cooling of sentiments right now, especially in the private property market, where I concentrate on. Many, infact, almost all of those crazy HDB records you read about in the papers were really from unscrupluous agents cold knocking on doors promising sky high prices before actually looking for suckers to con and thus creating an artificial price ceiling. But like I said, there's always a flipside to the story. In such cases, while one family is losing out on getting a house for cheap, another family is laughing all the way to the bank, someone wins, someone loses.
My point, is that there are no quick and easy fixes to this situation. There are no blanket fixes, no one sized hammer that would easily take care of the interest of one group while not harming the interest of another. Like the conundrum I pointed out to you previously, an HDB flat represents the single biggest purchase of their lives for most Singaporeans, but also represents the single biggest asset for the majority of Singaporeans. To rephrase my words in a way that a politician, such as yourself, would be able to understand; in this bouyant housing market someone wins, someone loses, but both of them vote.
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Don't take it personally......But.........
It's pathetic for somebody who has lived in Canada and claims to know the tax system and gives you major errors in the tax rate. Your federal and provincial tax rate can never ever add up to 38%.
The deductions allowed in Canada is much more generous than Singapore, so your final taxable amount might not even add up to an effective tax rate of 21.75% (federal & provincial taxes). Canada has a more generous deduction system for income.
1) Basic personal amount C$10,320 (deduct this amount from your C$48,000, you will drop to a lower tax bracket)
2) Moving expenses (if you move house)
3) Public transport allowance (When you take MRT and SBS, how much do you get to deduct from your income?)
4) Interest payments on loans
5) Home renovation expenses
6) Interest paid on student loans
7) Medical expenses (When you pay that $10,000 operation in SGH, how much do you get to deduct?)
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/5000-g/5000g-09e.pdf
For an income of C$48,000 your federal tax payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$7,693
Provincial tax (British Columbia) payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$2,749
Effective tax rate:
21.75%
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
Many Singaporeans don't think much, some just don't have the mental capacity to think, that's why they are in power.
The common mentality of folks who don't want to pay higher taxes is, they are selfish and want to keep everything they made for themselves, without a care for the less fortunate folks. They also tend to assume that everybody who can't find work is leeching on their hard earned money.
If what you say is really true, then there must be a mass exodus from Canada and Hong Kongers who flock there before 1997 must be all morons.
If what you say is really true, then the net migration in Canada would be negative as the taxes are so high that everybody would be moving and nobody would be moving in.
"Immigrants made up the vast majority of the 1.6 million new Canadians between 2001 and 2006, giving the country the highest population growth rate among G8 countries, new census data released Tuesday suggests.
Canada's population stands at 31,612,897, with a growth rate of 5.4 per cent during that five-year period.
That's up from the four per cent growth rate in the previous census period between 1996 and 2001.
Roughly 1.2 million new immigrants made up the bulk of the population growth outlined in the latest census, while the country's native-born population increased by 400,000."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/13/census-canada.html
This is my first and final post, I have no intention to engage anybody in any useless arguments.
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Originally posted by βÎτά:
Don't take it personally......But.........
It's pathetic for somebody who has lived in Canada and claims to know the tax system and gives you major errors in the tax rate. Your federal and provincial tax rate can never ever add up to 38%.
The deductions allowed in Canada is much more generous than Singapore, so your final taxable amount might not even add up to an effective tax rate of 21.75% (federal & provincial taxes). Canada has a more generous deduction system for income.
1) Basic personal amount C$10,320 (deduct this amount from your C$48,000, you will drop to a lower tax bracket)
2) Moving expenses (if you move house)
3) Public transport allowance (When you take MRT and SBS, how much do you get to deduct from your income?)
4) Interest payments on loans
5) Home renovation expenses
6) Interest paid on student loans
7) Medical expenses (When you pay that $10,000 operation in SGH, how much do you get to deduct?)
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/5000-g/5000g-09e.pdf
For an income of C$48,000 your federal tax payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$7,693
Provincial tax (British Columbia) payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$2,749
Effective tax rate:
21.75%
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
Many Singaporeans don't think much, some just don't have the mental capacity to think, that's why they are in power.
The common mentality of folks who don't want to pay higher taxes is, they are selfish and want to keep everything they made for themselves, without a care for the less fortunate folks. They also tend to assume that everybody who can't find work is leeching on their hard earned money.
If what you say is really true, then there must be a mass exodus from Canada and Hong Kongers who flock there before 1997 must be all morons.
If what you say is really true, then the net migration in Canada would be negative as the taxes are so high that everybody would be moving and nobody would be moving in.
"Immigrants made up the vast majority of the 1.6 million new Canadians between 2001 and 2006, giving the country the highest population growth rate among G8 countries, new census data released Tuesday suggests.
Canada's population stands at 31,612,897, with a growth rate of 5.4 per cent during that five-year period.
That's up from the four per cent growth rate in the previous census period between 1996 and 2001.
Roughly 1.2 million new immigrants made up the bulk of the population growth outlined in the latest census, while the country's native-born population increased by 400,000."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/13/census-canada.html
This is my first and final post, I have no intention to engage anybody in any useless arguments.
Fatum is just being a sour grape. Probably lost his job in Canada and had to go back home to SG.
He doesn't remember the taxes he paid goes to welfare coverage and many other family friendly and retirement perks that he gets to enjoy if he had stayed long enough.
480K on a property ? What kind of property ? A pigeon hole or a landed one ? 99 year lease or freehold ? Can't even differentiate ? What kind of property agent is he, I wonder.
The moment HDB lease shorter term flats at a fraction of price/cost and takes back the leased flat and release it themselves , property agents can go eat grass. That be the day for me.
To Fatum, please go find a proper job.
You want to be a sucker, be my guest. Go and pay that less than $300,000 public housing unit because you think it's value for money.
However many don't think it's worth that much ,but they don't have a choice.
Your self-serving post doesn't fool too many.
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Aunt Jojo, apart from the insults you throw at Fatum, I agree with you that less than 300k for a public housing isn't value for money.
Even most condos are not value for money...
Freehold or 999 years landed is the way to go. But how many can afford?
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Originally posted by βÎτά:
Don't take it personally......But.........
It's pathetic for somebody who has lived in Canada and claims to know the tax system and gives you major errors in the tax rate. Your federal and provincial tax rate can never ever add up to 38%.
The deductions allowed in Canada is much more generous than Singapore, so your final taxable amount might not even add up to an effective tax rate of 21.75% (federal & provincial taxes). Canada has a more generous deduction system for income.
1) Basic personal amount C$10,320 (deduct this amount from your C$48,000, you will drop to a lower tax bracket)
2) Moving expenses (if you move house)
3) Public transport allowance (When you take MRT and SBS, how much do you get to deduct from your income?)
4) Interest payments on loans
5) Home renovation expenses
6) Interest paid on student loans
7) Medical expenses (When you pay that $10,000 operation in SGH, how much do you get to deduct?)
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/5000-g/5000g-09e.pdf
For an income of C$48,000 your federal tax payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$7,693
Provincial tax (British Columbia) payable would be (did not take into account your basic personal deduction of C$10,320):
C$2,749
Effective tax rate:
21.75%
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
Many Singaporeans don't think much, some just don't have the mental capacity to think, that's why they are in power.
The common mentality of folks who don't want to pay higher taxes is, they are selfish and want to keep everything they made for themselves, without a care for the less fortunate folks. They also tend to assume that everybody who can't find work is leeching on their hard earned money.
If what you say is really true, then there must be a mass exodus from Canada and Hong Kongers who flock there before 1997 must be all morons.
If what you say is really true, then the net migration in Canada would be negative as the taxes are so high that everybody would be moving and nobody would be moving in.
"Immigrants made up the vast majority of the 1.6 million new Canadians between 2001 and 2006, giving the country the highest population growth rate among G8 countries, new census data released Tuesday suggests.
Canada's population stands at 31,612,897, with a growth rate of 5.4 per cent during that five-year period.
That's up from the four per cent growth rate in the previous census period between 1996 and 2001.
Roughly 1.2 million new immigrants made up the bulk of the population growth outlined in the latest census, while the country's native-born population increased by 400,000."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/13/census-canada.html
This is my first and final post, I have no intention to engage anybody in any useless arguments.
Sigh, another small boy googler who thinks he can know everything from the internet ?
Okie, here goes.
Firstly, I was working at the province of saskatchewan, why there ? cos I graduated from there, and the canadian space agency is there, my ex company made something that had something to do with that place. You'll also notice that the province of saskatchewan, unfortunately for me, had one of the highest provincial tax rates in Canada. Secondly, if you click back the tax rates for previous years, taxes were higher then than in 2010. I graduated in 2006, working there till the end of 2007. However, my application to convert my visa from a student's visa to a work visa in-country, as anyone who's ever done it before would attest, took four months. So my pay was withheld and backdated till feb 2007. And the first time I actually filed any taxes was in 2007. As anyone who's studied in canada would tell you, that's a mistake, cos the tax office would have no records of you.
Why is this a bad idea ? Cos over there, they'll tax your money from your paycheck first and pay you back your deductables AFTER you've filed your taxes later on. With the taxes and living expenses so high people would go broke if they had to squeeze 10, 20k out later on. That also means that with no previous records to work on, they'd assume that you have, no income. That also means that for the year 2007, I got no tax rebates, or rather, I still have approximately $9720 then,(not $10320) which is stuck in the canadian tax service, which I am unable to claim back since I am no longer in country nor with a valid work visa, having returned to Singapore by the tax filing of 2008. That also means that for my combined income for 2007, I had to pay the full tax rates ranging from federal of 15 to 22%, and provincial of 11 to 13%. Coupled with my CPP and provincial EI, both of which are black holes I'll never see again, since I am not a canadian nor a PR. almost 38% of my income disappears before I get my net for the month, throughout 2007, savvy ?
But yes, granted, if you deduct the CPP (their CPF, at only 5%, from employees only) for canadians, they'll feel slightly less pinch than I did. Would you like a pat for that ?
And while I cannot comment on the lifestyle choices of hongkies who chose to flock there (and to so many other points of the globe before 97 for that matter), makes them moronic or not, if tax rates is the core criteria for migrating, then you are, indeed, a moron.
Have you filed your Singapore taxes for the year already ? Though I strongly suspect you have yet to have to file any sort of taxes at all. Know why I say this ? Cos while it is true that there are a lot more personal deductables (so much so that calculating personal taxes requires a chap from H&R block there most of the time), The overall tax rates in Singapore is still waaaaaay waaaaaay below even the lowest 2010 british columbia tax rates you just googled up. You have to make more than 300k a year in Singapore before you can even approach the lowest personal tax brackets of BC or Alberta. Know how I could have paid more taxes in a month than my father does in a year ? why don't you further exercise your googling skills and find out Singapore's tax rates ? or you eyes wouldn't allow you to see, what your mind doesn't want to ?
And just before you think you've discovered paradise on earth, despite the taxes, why don't you work out the cost of housing in say, british columbia, since you seem to have a penchant for the place. google for the prices of houses there, from point2.com, one of my classmates works for that company now. he makes C$50k, tell me, over a 40yr mortgage, how much mortgage would he have to pay at an average 6% interest, and how much would he have left after his "low" income tax ?
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- I think new flats in Singapore is pretty affordable.... overpriced anot is another issue but it is affordable to the general public.
- Whether the new flats (supply) is able to meet demand by new couples is the question.
- Because of the waiting time for the rest... they might have to resort to resale... which is higher and whether or not that is affordable is debatable.
- Problem with Singapore is that it is super difficult to break into the investment market. After buying a HDB, it is pretty difficult without parental help to get the next one as it has to be private. A decently small entry level private investment would be $700k Sgd i think on top of whatever mortgage still outstanding from your HDB. Without help from parents I find it hard to achieve that in Singapore for people working there with normal jobs.
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by Genie99a:
- I think new flats in Singapore is pretty affordable.... overpriced anot is another issue but it is affordable to the general public.
- Whether the new flats (supply) is able to meet demand by new couples is the question.
- Because of the waiting time for the rest... they might have to resort to resale... which is higher and whether or not that is affordable is debatable.
- Problem with Singapore is that it is super difficult to break into the investment market. After buying a HDB, it is pretty difficult without parental help to get the next one as it has to be private. A decently small entry level private investment would be $700k Sgd i think on top of whatever mortgage still outstanding from your HDB. Without help from parents I find it hard to achieve that in Singapore for people working there with normal jobs.
Kind Regards
Genie
tip no.1 - you don't have to own a private property all by yourself.
tip no.2 - there ARE still half a mil to sub 600k private apartments and condos around, if you know where to look (and no, I'm not talking about those lease running out types.)
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- Problem with Singapore is that it is super difficult to break into the investment market. After buying a HDB, it is pretty difficult without parental help to get the next one as it has to be private. A decently small entry level private investment would be $700k Sgd i think on top of whatever mortgage still outstanding from your HDB. Without help from parents I find it hard to achieve that in Singapore for people working there with normal jobs.
So why work with normal jobs?
If you have a normal job with a normal income born in a normal family, you get a normal place to stay in.
Doing the same thing as 80% of people is the surest way to be part of the 80%.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
tip no.1 - you don't have to own a private property all by yourself.
tip no.2 - there ARE still half a mil to sub 600k private apartments and condos around, if you know where to look (and no, I'm not talking about those lease running out types.)
Great posts, Fatum. It's funny how many who claim here to espouse democracy and free media like to resort to name-calling and personal insults against people who disagree.
I worked as a temporary tax assistant once. I agree that while the costs of living are indeed higher now, countries like Canada are not having it better. Fatum wasn't lying- the combined provincial and federal tax rates for a Saskatchewan resident in the LOWEST income bracket is a staggering 26%, according to the Canadian Revenue Agency (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html). To be fair, it may be lower at 19% in other states.
Edit- Changed from 15% to 19% in the last line.
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Fatum and Chunhow,
I am really sorry about your failed ventures in Canada.
But please do not compare your short lived dream with what the Singaporeans are facing in Singapore. Singaporeans are not temporary residents in Singapore
The tax and welfare system in Canada is not meant for people like you, who needs instand gratification because of the limited life you have there.
Try harder next time.
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I am always curious about one aspect of livelyhood in Sington.
any particular reason why Singtonians are so fasinated by HDB?
I mean what is the interest of speculating higher HDB price to the point where it is beyond reach for the younger generation? and they have no choice but to move OUT of Sington?
Remember WhoVille....at the end of the day resident of whoville did not get any christmas gift but they have this blank smilely face and happy.
Are we the next Whoville.....lovey davy....where we worked till we dropped... with a broke back mountain of Debt...?
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the mountain of debts goes away once u sold it to another sucker.....
but a flat, rent it out and stay with ur folk.... ur folk love the company, and u get free nanny for ur kids...
down side, having more then 1 adult female in a confine area always prove to more then a hand full on a prolong duration....
Chanel, bottega veneta, tods, hermes, fendi... do come in handy at times....
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Originally posted by EarlNeo:
the mountain of debts goes away once u sold it to another sucker.....
but a flat, rent it out and stay with ur folk.... ur folk love the company, and u get free nanny for ur kids...
down side, having more then 1 adult female in a confine area always prove to more then a hand full on a prolong duration....
Chanel, bottega veneta, tods, hermes, fendi... do come in handy at times....
you're a very brave man to want to put two woman together in the same house.
also note that there are legal excemptions to rent out your flat to someone else if you choose to stay with your parents. It's not always illegal, if you do the necessary.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
you're a very brave man to want to put two woman together in the same house.
also note that there are legal excemptions to rent out your flat to someone else if you choose to stay with your parents. It's not always illegal, if you do the necessary.
why rent out the new one when there is an old one for tenant to trash up!!
for 2 women to exist in the same space continual theory , Albert Einstein once mention the keys to it success is dynamic fluctuation.... on so call time slot allocation... for minimal contact and exposure... hard to fight when they dun meet...
then again if all fail... buffer, buffer, buffer... those in the name Chanel, bottega veneta, tods, hermes, fendi.... for one side and kids in the others....
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Originally posted by EarlNeo:
why rent out the new one when there is an old one for tenant to trash up!!
for 2 women to exist in the same space continual theory , Albert Einstein once mention the keys to it success is dynamic fluctuation.... on so call time slot allocation... for minimal contact and exposure... hard to fight when they dun meet...
then again if all fail... buffer, buffer, buffer... those in the name Chanel, bottega veneta, tods, hermes, fendi.... for one side and kids in the others....
you'd have to do a cost analysis and see whether paying for chanel, hermes, fendi etc, is less than the cost of another house ......
the price tag of hermes in particular, can make men chua lio one ....
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They're reminding me of Shinra..
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Originally posted by Fatum:
you'd have to do a cost analysis and see whether paying for chanel, hermes, fendi etc, is less than the cost of another house ......
the price tag of hermes in particular, can make men chua lio one ....
the way i look at it... most women cant seem to live without one of those anyway... meaning sooner or later they expect it of u...
since u giving them, might as well make them suffer in equal measure while at it...
actually of the 6 mention above... which would u ladies go for.... btw, a cheapest scarf u get off retail for those goes from $800 onward... i last check...
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
You are the only one reacting to the hum7030 from taiwan.
If only you can learn how not to be so "zwei-siao" by enjoying your life in your familiar turd - no one will learn of your "zwei-siao-ness" in not being truthful about yourself.Am I the only one reacting to the Taiwanese 'hum' ?
14 year old Singaporean vows to leave Singapore if PAP is no
Originally posted by angel7030:show
why not try to sell your NS ware at sungei road or some flea markets, sure to earn few bucks. If you dun try, nothing will happen. -
Originally posted by eagle:
- Problem with Singapore is that it is super difficult to break into the investment market. After buying a HDB, it is pretty difficult without parental help to get the next one as it has to be private. A decently small entry level private investment would be $700k Sgd i think on top of whatever mortgage still outstanding from your HDB. Without help from parents I find it hard to achieve that in Singapore for people working there with normal jobs.
So why work with normal jobs?
If you have a normal job with a normal income born in a normal family, you get a normal place to stay in.
Doing the same thing as 80% of people is the surest way to be part of the 80%.
not everyone can land themselves with good jobs i guess
and because the entry into an investment property is so hard in sg they have less options for additional income
in some countries there is a fighting chance to make additional income via investment properties and if lucky get rich sorta...
in other words... in singapore if u have a normal job u r kinda doomed.... but overseas.... even if u have a normal job.... u have a fighting chance to be better off ..does that make sense? if not ill clarify in another post.
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by Fatum:
tip no.1 - you don't have to own a private property all by yourself.
tip no.2 - there ARE still half a mil to sub 600k private apartments and condos around, if you know where to look (and no, I'm not talking about those lease running out types.)
good tips.. but usually private property shared between wife and husband ...thats about it. i mean we could get our parents involved but i guess its more troublesome and thus not an option to all singaporeans.i mean decent ones usually +- 700k i think? i have no idea about the market now so i guess if 500-600k can get a decent condo... then maybe those into resale 5 rooms could aim for that instead?
Kind Regards
Genie
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Originally posted by eagle:
Aunt Jojo, apart from the insults you throw at Fatum, I agree with you that less than 300k for a public housing isn't value for money.
Even most condos are not value for money...
Freehold or 999 years landed is the way to go. But how many can afford?
Me, live in Free to Hold,Oh yes, understandable, daily tuitions and depending on shares markets will find it a bit difficult to hold
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Originally posted by Atobe:
If only you can learn how not to be so "zwei-siao" by enjoying your life in your familiar turd - no one will learn of your "zwei-siao-ness" in not being truthful about yourself.Am I the only one reacting to the Taiwanese 'hum' ?
14 year old Singaporean vows to leave Singapore if PAP is no
oh, new quote...hahaha...when man are desparate, even wife also they can sell, beast will alway be beast by nature ya -
Originally posted by Fatum:
Mr Goh, have you actually been checking out on the prices of brand new flats from the HDB ?
discounting "prime" BTOs like dawson, there ARE very cheap flats to be had direct from the HDB. Case in point. My fiance and I, we were just successful in a BTO exercise at segar grove. We got ourselves a 4 bedroom flat. The price for a four bedroom unit there, according to the list in our invitation letter, ranges from only 215k to 248k, before rebates. And even in other new BTO estates like woodlands and sengkang, like what one of my friends got, the prices is still quite a bit less than 300k, That is to say, the prices of the average brand new HDB flat is almost half of what a resale flat costs nowadays.
Do you think that's too much to pay for a brand new four room HDB flat ?
And of course, it is unrealistic to earmark a brand new flat for every new couple starting out, our limited landmass and the dynamics of society demands it to be so. Imagine this, suppose the average family starts out, requiring a brand new flat from the goverment, they have three kids, in time when they grow up, they'll each start up their own families too, requiring three more brand new flats, is this more than exponential growth in housing requirement realistic, or tenable ? of course not ! And when the parents depart this plane, what becomes of the flat ? So there'll always be a pool of resale flats available on the open market. Some people upgrade from HDB to private, some people downgrade to HDB, some people buy a bigger flat as their financial situation improves, some people exchange a bigger flat for a smaller one when their children leaves the nest, some people chose to monetize their flats and move into a smaller one etc etc. Someone would always be buying and selling, even if you are not, Mr Goh. This is simply social dynamics at work.
And let us keep in mind that HDB flats are not created equal, even within the same block, a top floor unit would be much more desirable than a 2nd floor unit, a west facing unit less desirable than one that faces the morning sun, a new estate 5 minutes from town would be more desirable than one at, say, sembawang or woodlands. And they are all assets of different values, carrying different price tags on the resale market. How do we make an equitable distribution of these assets, if the HDB were to flip them all at cost price ? Do you think it is fair, to make 2nd floor unit fellows pay the same price as the top floor unit chaps, when the top floor unit chap would end up with a more valuable asset and get more for his flat on the resale market than the 2nd floor chap ? Do you think it is fair, to make the chaps at sembawang pay the same price for their flat as the chaps at dawson, when the dawson chaps would be able to flip their houses for twice at much on the resale market as the sembawang chaps ? Premiums and price differentiation exist for a reason. People should be and are willing to pay a premium on the perceived values of their purchases, and rightly, this includes housing as well. like I said above, we are not north korea.
And just to offer people who thinks the grass is always greener on the other side another perspective, here's a story.
I studied in Canada and worked for some time there as a software developer for a telco company after my graduation, my starting pay was C$48k a year, a decent starting graduate wage and more than the average wage there. However, my provincial and federal income tax rate came up to around 38% a year ! with GST at 14% ! I paid as much income tax there in a month than what my father paid here in a year ! So by the time I got my monthly paycheck, my pay's not much different from the take home of a decent graduate in Singapore. Minus a car loan (unlike here, actually neccessary cos you don't want to be taking a bus at -40 celcius weather, and there's no MRT), minus the housing rentals and heat and hydro and living expenses, and I realized I was worse off than my peers in Singapore. And of course, they don't have an HDB in Canada. A schoolmate of mine just bought a property there for 480k at the beginning of the year, but considering the income tax rates, it's no wonder why banks there routinely offer 35 to 40 year mortgages ! And her city's considered cheap, btw, compared to say, vancouver. Of course, there's no CPF ordinary account contributions for you to pay off your mortgage without squeezing your current income, so everything comes out of your paycheck. There are also no preferential HDB loan rates, the commercial rates are also almost double of here, so even a measly 250k mortgage for a hovel of a property beside the ghetto there would cost you more than $1.5k a month over 40 years. How's that for enslavement, Mr Goh ? Guess why most ang mohs pack their own lunch to work there ? And of course, whenever I drove by the inner city ghettos and see the drug pushers and parasitic druggies and bums being fed by the goverment with 38% of my hard earned paycheck ......................
These are some of the reason why Singapore is still my home, after all that time away.
Do I, as a part time property agent, think the resale HDB market to be high right now ? Yes I do, though COVs bordering on lunacy are the exceptions rather than the rule, and though there is a definite cooling of sentiments right now, especially in the private property market, where I concentrate on. Many, infact, almost all of those crazy HDB records you read about in the papers were really from unscrupluous agents cold knocking on doors promising sky high prices before actually looking for suckers to con and thus creating an artificial price ceiling. But like I said, there's always a flipside to the story. In such cases, while one family is losing out on getting a house for cheap, another family is laughing all the way to the bank, someone wins, someone loses.
My point, is that there are no quick and easy fixes to this situation. There are no blanket fixes, no one sized hammer that would easily take care of the interest of one group while not harming the interest of another. Like the conundrum I pointed out to you previously, an HDB flat represents the single biggest purchase of their lives for most Singaporeans, but also represents the single biggest asset for the majority of Singaporeans. To rephrase my words in a way that a politician, such as yourself, would be able to understand; in this bouyant housing market someone wins, someone loses, but both of them vote.
Wha, property agents sell houses until sgforums, must be damn desparate liao... -
Originally posted by Genie99a:
not everyone can land themselves with good jobs i guess
and because the entry into an investment property is so hard in sg they have less options for additional income
in some countries there is a fighting chance to make additional income via investment properties and if lucky get rich sorta...
in other words... in singapore if u have a normal job u r kinda doomed.... but overseas.... even if u have a normal job.... u have a fighting chance to be better off ..does that make sense? if not ill clarify in another post.
Kind Regards
Genie
Hi, I don't think what you said is true.
(1) Entry to investment property isn't hard in Sg. And anywhere in the world, if the property price is low, and remains low, I can't see how it will be a better investment than if the property price is high and remain high. It's the ROI that matters.
And if it's because of ROI, there's no necessity to look only to investment properties. There are other vehicles as well too.
And it all boils down to reading up and planning ahead while young.
(2) No matter where in the world, as long as you doing the same as the 80%, you will remain as part of the 80%. No matter where, even in local context, you have a fighting chance to break out of a "normal job" as well if you want to.
If you want to talk about being lucky, you have a fighting chance to strike it rich via Toto in Sg as well.
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