Message for Young PAP or those working in the govt
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
Was founded by JB Jeyaratnam, but when he passed on, his son a LSE graduate took over.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Originally posted by the Bear:
whenever someone points out that politicians are basically scum of the earth and that CSJ and SDP is no different, and show why it is, their fanboys and worshippers will come in and start slinging mud
somehow, they cannot reconcile the fact that those who detest people like CSJ can also detest the MIW...
and to them, people like CSJ are better than god, they are more than perfect, and their shit don't stink...
and if MIW does anything right (no matter how rare that is) it must be slagged off even if they have to lie about it...
frankly, they do a grave disservice to the hardworking opposition people out there who actually try to serve the people and better the lot of their precinct.. who would lump the good work with the attention-whoring of CSJ and PKMS..
sad huh?
The “narcissism” of a Bear never fails despite all the lessons served, being the perenial self-promoting ‘Drama Queen’ featuring the unique expertise in the attention-seeking techniques of the whores that it associates itself with.
At least, you have abandoned the skewed back-stabbing thoughts that you shamelessly expressed with such brazeness.
For one who will claim that they do not love the MIW, nor the CSJs, and believe that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" - you may as well live a parasitical life off the stronger species that are more decisive then you possibly dare to even pretend to be in any form.
Only a ‘Drama Queen’ - skilled in the "Art of Extremism" - will resort to exaggerate anyone will look at - "people like CSJ are better than god, they are more than perfect, and their shit don't stink..." - as it is extremism expressed that will fulfill the addictive need for shock and awe to achieve the full drama.
Can one who claim that it does not love the MIW even know how to appreciate what is done right by the MIW ?
Can one who claim that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" appreciate any work of those "hardworking opposition people out there who actually try to serve the people and better the lot of their precinct" ?
It is already a fact long established that the negativism of the ‘Drama Queen’ towards CSJ and the SDP is based on some personal disappointment in a previous 'love-hate' relationship - that began with such high hopes, but was deeply disappointed when everything crashed on the very grand opening day for the entire season.
What can be more bitter for a ‘Drama Queen’ then the unfulfilled wait for ecstasy to happen as it bend over to wait passively without any efforts to achieve its own ends ?
The truth is that it is the “narcissists” like the resident ‘Drama Queen’ who will be the scourge that will consistently undermine the collective efforts of the Alternative Political Parties with the false positions of being "neutral cynics".
Fortunately, there are those who are more pro-active then those who will declare to being neutral and preferring only to act in judgment over all actions taken, then pick on the winning side when the battle is over; or to live bitterly when the hated status quo continues and blaming everyone except themselves for the failed efforts.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
The “narcissism” of a Bear never fails despite all the lessons served, being the perenial self-promoting ‘Drama Queen’ featuring the unique expertise in the attention-seeking techniques of the whores that it associates itself with.
At least, you have abandoned the skewed back-stabbing thoughts that you shamelessly expressed with such brazeness.
For one who will claim that they do not love the MIW, nor the CSJs, and believe that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" - you may as well live a parasitical life off the stronger species that are more decisive then you possibly dare to even pretend to be in any form.
Only a ‘Drama Queen’ - skilled in the "Art of Extremism" - will resort to exaggerate anyone will look at - "people like CSJ are better than god, they are more than perfect, and their shit don't stink..." - as it is extremism expressed that will fulfill the addictive need for shock and awe to achieve the full drama.
Can one who claim that it does not love the MIW even know how to appreciate what is done right by the MIW ?
Can one who claim that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" appreciate any work of those "hardworking opposition people out there who actually try to serve the people and better the lot of their precinct" ?
It is already a fact long established that the negativism of the ‘Drama Queen’ towards CSJ and the SDP is based on some personal disappointment in a previous 'love-hate' relationship - that began with such high hopes, but was deeply disappointed when everything crashed on the very grand opening day for the entire season.
What can be more bitter for a ‘Drama Queen’ then the unfulfilled wait for ecstasy to happen as it bend over to wait passively without any efforts to achieve its own ends ?
The truth is that it is the “narcissists” like the resident ‘Drama Queen’ who will be the scourge that will consistently undermine the collective efforts of the Alternative Political Parties with the false positions of being "neutral cynics".
Fortunately, there are those who are more pro-active then those who will declare to being neutral and preferring only to act in judgment over all actions taken, then pick on the winning side when the battle is over; or to live bitterly when the hated status quo continues and blaming everyone except themselves for the failed efforts.
drama queen?
more like idiot and rubbish queen
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Originally posted by Atobe:
The “narcissism” of a Bear never fails despite all the lessons served, being the perenial self-promoting ‘Drama Queen’ featuring the unique expertise in the attention-seeking techniques of the whores that it associates itself with.
At least, you have abandoned the skewed back-stabbing thoughts that you shamelessly expressed with such brazeness.
For one who will claim that they do not love the MIW, nor the CSJs, and believe that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" - you may as well live a parasitical life off the stronger species that are more decisive then you possibly dare to even pretend to be in any form.
Only a ‘Drama Queen’ - skilled in the "Art of Extremism" - will resort to exaggerate anyone will look at - "people like CSJ are better than god, they are more than perfect, and their shit don't stink..." - as it is extremism expressed that will fulfill the addictive need for shock and awe to achieve the full drama.
Can one who claim that it does not love the MIW even know how to appreciate what is done right by the MIW ?
Can one who claim that "politicians are basically scum of the earth" appreciate any work of those "hardworking opposition people out there who actually try to serve the people and better the lot of their precinct" ?
It is already a fact long established that the negativism of the ‘Drama Queen’ towards CSJ and the SDP is based on some personal disappointment in a previous 'love-hate' relationship - that began with such high hopes, but was deeply disappointed when everything crashed on the very grand opening day for the entire season.
What can be more bitter for a ‘Drama Queen’ then the unfulfilled wait for ecstasy to happen as it bend over to wait passively without any efforts to achieve its own ends ?
The truth is that it is the “narcissists” like the resident ‘Drama Queen’ who will be the scourge that will consistently undermine the collective efforts of the Alternative Political Parties with the false positions of being "neutral cynics".
Fortunately, there are those who are more pro-active then those who will declare to being neutral and preferring only to act in judgment over all actions taken, then pick on the winning side when the battle is over; or to live bitterly when the hated status quo continues and blaming everyone except themselves for the failed efforts.
Sigh! I thought he has changed for the better.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
Sigh! I thought he has changed for the better.
Atobe needs a frontal lobotomy if he is to get any better. -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Sigh! I thought he has changed for the better.
You are talking about the bear or atobe?
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Originally posted by fireng:
You are talking about the bear or atobe?
bear -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
bearActually I know but I am asking because others thinks that you are talking about atobe
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Originally posted by fireng:
Actually I know but I am asking because others thinks that you are talking about atobe
hahahahha, I know what you mean
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
hahahahha, I know what you meanWhen I 1st read that post by that guy, I was wondering why the 2 of us had different interpretation of your statement. Haha
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Originally posted by fireng:
When I 1st read that post by that guy, I was wondering why the 2 of us had different interpretation of your statement. Haha
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Atobe needs a frontal lobotomy if he is to get any better.
Has the "zwei-siao-hog" feel so challenged that it needs a handicap just to get ahead in the continued debate ?It should go for an ‘orchiectomy’ (*1) - which will be in character for a "hog" - as it will surely help to lighten its load, and will surely help to raise the "zwei-siao" squeal by a few more octaves.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Has the "zwei-siao-hog" feel so challenged that it needs a handicap just to get ahead in the continued debate ?It should go for an ‘orchiectomy’ (*1) - which will be in character for a "hog" - as it will surely help to lighten its load, and will surely help to raise the "zwei-siao" squeal by a few more octaves.
There is no debate, just insults if you can remember? When normal people debate, they still uphold personal respect for fellow beings but you just insult people on their political and social views.It is a waste of space for you to have a brain because you do not seem concern about the welfare of fellow Singaporeans.As I have stated before, CSJ is not a good leader as he is not concerned about the welfare of Singaporeans but babbling nonsense about fighting for democracy. His concept of democracy is not what Singaporeans need and want, as there is no responsibility if there is any social action taken.
So Atobe, if you are human, kindly stop squealing your insults at normal human beings.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
There is no debate, just insults if you can remember? When normal people debate, they still uphold personal respect for fellow beings but you just insult people on their political and social views.Did your memory conveniently return to remember that there is no debate with insults ?
How convenient to have suddenly bring this up as a sanctimonius reminder when you have consistently slipped up into a fit with an untenable position that you insist in hopelessly pursuing ?
Taking your response to 'youyayou' on Page 2, and 'fireng' on Page 3 of this thread will already prove a point that your present position is again hopelessly untenable considering your inability to suppress the 'Fascist' nature in the baseline attitude that is no better then a "pretentious Bavarian" Hog.
Is your "zwei-siao" response to 'youyayou' and 'fireng' a debate of any kind that allow them to hold their views with some respect from you ?
It is a waste of space for you to have a brain because you do not seem concern about the welfare of fellow Singaporeans.As I have stated before, CSJ is not a good leader as he is not concerned about the welfare of Singaporeans but babbling nonsense about fighting for democracy. His concept of democracy is not what Singaporeans need and want, as there is no responsibility if there is any social action taken.
Your sudden sanctimonious awakening to be concerned with "the welfare of fellow Singaporeans" is laughable considering your indiscriminate political values and dubious views of what is good for Singaporeans.
Can your position in spreading the PAP's values and continued politics for Singapore be of any consequence to the welfare of Singaporeans ?
What do you know of the kind of Democracy that CSJ is advocating ?
How many ways can "Democracy" be interpreted, re-interpreted, cut-up and the word split into its fine hair definition to mean what CSJ can possible demean the word as understood in your mind ?
What 'social action' have you in mind that will make "Democracy" become detrimental to the welfare of Singaporeans ?
It is useless to simply plagiarize the "standard text and statements" of your clumsy and low IQ Gorillas to strike fear in Singaporeans against an intelligent Chimpanzee, who is light-years ahead compared to the intelligence of a 'hog'.
So Atobe, if you are human, kindly stop squealing your insults at normal human beings.
Do normal human beings take on such pretentious roles and adopt "zwei-siao" views that demean the human being ?
Surely, you are not suggesting to be one when you recognise the grunts and squeals to be insults to your nature ?
If you need a handicap to get ahead in a debate or an argument, why will you not simply state it openly ?
Is there a need to be even dishonest in such a simple task ?
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Lee Kuan Yew.
It is time.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Did your memory conveniently return to remember that there is no debate with insults ?
How convenient to have suddenly bring this up as a sanctimonius reminder when you have consistently slipped up into a fit with an untenable position that you insist in hopelessly pursuing ?
Taking your response to 'youyayou' on Page 2, and 'fireng' on Page 3 of this thread will already prove a point that your present position is again hopelessly untenable considering your inability to suppress the 'Fascist' nature in the baseline attitude that is no better then a "pretentious Bavarian" Hog.
Is your "zwei-siao" response to 'youyayou' and 'fireng' a debate of any kind that allow them to hold their views with some respect from you ?
Your sudden sanctimonious awakening to be concerned with "the welfare of fellow Singaporeans" is laughable considering your indiscriminate political values and dubious views of what is good for Singaporeans.
Can your position in spreading the PAP's values and continued politics for Singapore be of any consequence to the welfare of Singaporeans ?
What do you know of the kind of Democracy that CSJ is advocating ?
How many ways can "Democracy" be interpreted, re-interpreted, cut-up and the word split into its fine hair definition to mean what CSJ can possible demean the word as understood in your mind ?
What 'social action' have you in mind that will make "Democracy" become detrimental to the welfare of Singaporeans ?
It is useless to simply plagiarize the "standard text and statements" of your clumsy and low IQ Gorillas to strike fear in Singaporeans against an intelligent Chimpanzee, who is light-years ahead compared to the intelligence of a 'hog'.
Do normal human beings take on such pretentious roles and adopt "zwei-siao" views that demean the human being ?
Surely, you are not suggesting to be one when you recognise the grunts and squeals to be insults to your nature ?
If you need a handicap to get ahead in a debate or an argument, why will you not simply state it openly ?
Is there a need to be even dishonest in such a simple task ?
You aim to insult, people aim to debate.
I have stated facts about errors in youyayou and fireeng's logic, but you are just plainly using vulgarities without logic nor facts. So you better stop squealing about being fair, because you are just plain vulgar. You undermine the meaning of democracy with your vulgar-filled postings.
What use is your brain if you cannot debate like a normal person? I personally havn't used any vulgarity or demeaning expression before you started to call me a hog. And I have the guts to call both PAP and SDP as incapable and non-public serving bodies using facts.Please do not grunt and go for your lobotomy and orchiectomy without complaints as you are mentally useless and cowardly like the animal you are.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
You aim to insult, people aim to debate.
Yes, People aim to debate.
Do "Fascist Hogs" debate ?
Did I aim to insult people, or only specific breeds of nature's miscreants that insult others with their "zwei-siao" stupidity ?
I have stated facts about errors in youyayou and fireeng's logic, but you are just plainly using vulgarities without logic nor facts. So you better stop squealing about being fair, because you are just plain vulgar. You undermine the meaning of democracy with your vulgar-filled postings.
Your brilliance in basic social skills in a democratic debate is as amazing as your "zwei-siao" standards of "logic and errors" to justify your pretentiously false position.
To the errors of "youyayou" - your gracious social skilled reply:
PAP does have many capable personnel but all are forced to toe the party line. So wake up your ideas and stop fingerpoint at everyone.
To the logic of "fireeng" - your democratic reply:-
Stupid question, should ask if the common people can accept any plan from the opposition first. And see if the alternative party can be voted into power by such a ticket.
Obviously to a "zwei-siao-hog" accustomed to perpetuating false positions is less vulgar than the truth spoken about its being naturally "zwei-siao" .
What use is your brain if you cannot debate like a normal person? I personally havn't used any vulgarity or demeaning expression before you started to call me a hog. And I have the guts to call both PAP and SDP as incapable and non-public serving bodies using facts.Please do not grunt and go for your lobotomy and orchiectomy without complaints as you are mentally useless and cowardly like the animal you are.
Does a normal person debate normally with a "Fascist Hog" that pretend to be some kind of quality "Bavarian" porky ?
It is only in true form of a "Fascist" that it will deny responsibility and prefer to indulge in who started the verbal slug-fest.
Going by your grand performance in fulfilling your redefinition in your "Basic Social Skills" at treating your innocent victims to your "Fascist" methods in debate - do we need to dig through the history of this Speaker's Corner to unravel the mystery of the slug-fest ?
Have you forgotten your favorite turd ?
Can turd go for lobotomy or even an orchiectomy ?
Your ambivalence in treating others with your "Fascist" methods can be fatal to the well-being of a pretentious "Bavarian Hog".
It is dangerous to be "wishy-washy" as a "Fascist Hog", obviously the loose bag with the tiny nut is obstructing the goose-stepping short legs.
It is simply not possible to be goose-stepping on four legs, and will make the "Fascist Hog" look simply ridiculous.
If you want to look impressive even as a pretentious "Germanic Hog" - despite all the "zwei-siao" character now - you have to go for the obvious orchiectomy.
As for the lobotomy part, you can always delay the procedures, as it makes no difference in keeping the hog's upper body upright and in balance with the weightier bottom.
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That is some serious filter n spin.
hahaha
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Originally posted by angel3070:
Lee Kuan Yew.
It is time.
Not so fast I want to see him go frail and not being able to do anything to see the ruin of his leegime. Nothing last. The man has expired though he wont admit it.
A leegime of proud psychopaths, cheaters, liars and murderers! and most probably womanizers too Hahaha.
Above all. . . . .Thank God he only owes an island. The world tried to tolerate a monster like Hitler...the world also tried to tolerate Stalin because of their stature but I don't think the world could tolerate Singapore's monster. Conquer a lot more cities first may be you could get a province or two to boast about. You shameless crook! -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Yes, People aim to debate.
Do "Fascist Hogs" debate ?
Did I aim to insult people, or only specific breeds of nature's miscreants that insult others with their "zwei-siao" stupidity ?
Your brilliance in basic social skills in a democratic debate is as amazing as your "zwei-siao" standards of "logic and errors" to justify your pretentiously false position.
To the errors of "youyayou" - your gracious social skilled reply:
PAP does have many capable personnel but all are forced to toe the party line. So wake up your ideas and stop fingerpoint at everyone.
To the logic of "fireeng" - your democratic reply:-
Stupid question, should ask if the common people can accept any plan from the opposition first. And see if the alternative party can be voted into power by such a ticket.
Obviously to a "zwei-siao-hog" accustomed to perpetuating false positions is less vulgar than the truth spoken about its being naturally "zwei-siao" .
Does a normal person debate normally with a "Fascist Hog" that pretend to be some kind of quality "Bavarian" porky ?
It is only in true form of a "Fascist" that it will deny responsibility and prefer to indulge in who started the verbal slug-fest.
Going by your grand performance in fulfilling your redefinition in your "Basic Social Skills" at treating your innocent victims to your "Fascist" methods in debate - do we need to dig through the history of this Speaker's Corner to unravel the mystery of the slug-fest ?
Have you forgotten your favorite turd ?
Can turd go for lobotomy or even an orchiectomy ?
Your ambivalence in treating others with your "Fascist" methods can be fatal to the well-being of a pretentious "Bavarian Hog".
It is dangerous to be "wishy-washy" as a "Fascist Hog", obviously the loose bag with the tiny nut is obstructing the goose-stepping short legs.
It is simply not possible to be goose-stepping on four legs, and will make the "Fascist Hog" look simply ridiculous.
If you want to look impressive even as a pretentious "Germanic Hog" - despite all the "zwei-siao" character now - you have to go for the obvious orchiectomy.
As for the lobotomy part, you can always delay the procedures, as it makes no difference in keeping the hog's upper body upright and in balance with the weightier bottom.
Yes, you intend to insult people and not a wrongful cause. Hence it can be viewed that you are stupid and not worthy to be considered human.I have clearly replied to yoyayou's statement that:
young PAP need to know, they are NOT working for the money. they are working FOR the needs of fellow singaporeans.
PAP does have many capable personnel but all are forced to toe the party line. So wake up your ideas and stop fingerpoint at everyone.
And to fireng's statement:
Even if the opposition party has a proper plan do you think it will be accepted? Would the govt which make up of the majority who are from PAP accept plans proposed by the opposition?
My reply was:
Stupid question, should ask if the common people can accept any plan from the opposition first. And see if the alternative party can be voted into power by such a ticket.
So you shows that Atobe, the ATurddy, is a common prick without social conscience and wanting to insult any Singaporean who stands up for the people and democracy.Since you are not interested in human debate, let's get on with the name-calling and mud-slinging.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Not so fast I want to see him go frail and not being able to do anything to see the ruin of his leegime. Nothing last. The man has expired though he wont admit it.
A leegime of proud psychopaths, cheaters, liars and murderers! and most probably womanizers too Hahaha.
Above all. . . . .Thank God he only owes an island. The world tried to tolerate a monster like Hitler...the world also tried to tolerate Stalin because of their stature but I don't think the world could tolerate Singapore's monster. Conquer a lot more cities first may be you could get a province or two to boast about. You shameless crook!He can only manage a tiny dot, given a bigger country I doubt he can make it.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Not so fast I want to see him go frail and not being able to do anything to see the ruin of his leegime. Nothing last. The man has expired though he wont admit it.
A leegime of proud psychopaths, cheaters, liars and murderers! and most probably womanizers too Hahaha.
Above all. . . . .Thank God he only owes an island. The world tried to tolerate a monster like Hitler...the world also tried to tolerate Stalin because of their stature but I don't think the world could tolerate Singapore's monster. Conquer a lot more cities first may be you could get a province or two to boast about. You shameless crook!He can only manage a tiny dot, given a bigger country I doubt he can make it.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
He can only manage a tiny dot, given a bigger country I doubt he can make it.
He may only govern a tiny dot but he must have felt he is governing half of the world. Maybe it's his money that he is so very proud of. I'm still figuring out what he is and the leegime so cocky about. -
I'm beginning to conclude simply because they are dickhead!
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Yes, you intend to insult people and not a wrongful cause. Hence it can be viewed that you are stupid and not worthy to be considered human.A "zwei-siao-hog" is already bad enought, do you need to be a "Fascist Hog" as well to achieve the superlative level of being The Worst Hog ?
"Fascism" has a reputation for not being logical, nor objective, nor are they respected to be worthy of being considered for anything by any Human Standards.
Do you need to prove yourself so badly ?
Can we trust a "zwei-siao-hog" to be honest with its own accuracy of what its reply is intended ?
I have clearly replied to yoyayou's statement that:
young PAP need to know, they are NOT working for the money. they are working FOR the needs of fellow singaporeans.
PAP does have many capable personnel but all are forced to toe the party line. So wake up your ideas and stop fingerpoint at everyone.
Can the above reply in "blue" be a correct extract of the issue raised by "yoyayou" on Page 2 of this thread - which the "Fascist Hog" attempt to be diligent in repeating the issue ?
Or has the "Fascist Hog" now been exposed for attempting to cheat with its own argument by creating a new dishonest debate to prove its "zwei-siao" positon to be correct ?
The reply by the "zwei-siao-Fascist-Hog" on Page 2, 04 Oct '09, 6.48PM is not displayed in its actual form as shown above, when the correct and accurate version from Page 2 is as follows:-
Originally posted by youyayu:thats why he need to come out of protesting and use his inteligence on solution, how can he help improve.
instead of grumble and grumbing..
and he need to have a widen heart to be able to work with the current ruling party.
if not hardly any ppl will vote for him, thats a fact.
PAP does have many capable personnel but all are forced to toe the party line. So wake up your ideas and stop fingerpoint at everyone.
If the "Fascist Hog" intention is to be dishonestly clever, it should first learn to drop off its "zweil-siao" characteristics by at least being honest with itself.
It is no use to be dishonest when it is convenient for the moment.
And to fireng's statement:
Even if the opposition party has a proper plan do you think it will be accepted? Would the govt which make up of the majority who are from PAP accept plans proposed by the opposition?
My reply was:
Stupid question, should ask if the common people can accept any plan from the opposition first. And see if the alternative party can be voted into power by such a ticket.
Was fireng's question stupid, or does the stooopidity of a "Fascist Hog" forget its own demand for logic in the replies from others; and its demand for the standards of Democracy as part of the "Basic Social Skills" in debate ?
Obviously again, its "Fascist Standards" are applicable only on others, as such Fascist standards will undermine its own "zwei-siao" position as a pretentious "Bavarian Hog" ?
Can a "Fascist Hog" answer which should come first - the chicken or the egg ?
If the Government cannot accept the plans from the Opposition, do you think that it is any good for the Opposition to offer any to the Government ?
What makes the "Fascist Hog" so certain that the Government will even listen to the Citizens - if the Citizens were to accept the plans from the Opposition ?
In the other thread - ‘SDP calls on Dr Teo to stand with Bukit Panjang residents’ (*1) - the people are calling for their existing wet market not to be demolished - and had even recruited the assistance of their Elected MP from the "albino gorillas".
Did the Government even listened to the call from its own "albino Gorilla' ?
Did the Government even listened to the voice of those residents ?
Did the Government even appreciate the "Fascist Hog" for turning the spotlight on the stoooopidity of its statement to have the Citizen accept the Opposition plans first ?
So you shows that Atobe, the ATurddy, is a common prick without social conscience and wanting to insult any Singaporean who stands up for the people and democracy.Since you are not interested in human debate, let's get on with the name-calling and mud-slinging.
Have you grown tired of your "play-turd" now, and elevate the simple "turd" into some "ATurddy" with a common prick that a "zwei-siao-hog" can only wish to have ?
Is a "Fascist Hog" qualified to comment on anyone's ability to "stand up for the people and democracy" - when CSJ is consistenly mowed down by the "Fascist Hog" even as CSJ is the most pro-active and vocal towards the "albino gorillas" in demanding the return of the democratic rights to the people of Singapore ?
It is quite obvious by now that the "zwei-siao-hog" cannot possibly be good at any form of debate, nor even to fulfill its boasts of keeping to its own version of "basic social skill" at democratic debate.
Can the "zwei-siao-hog" be any good at "name-calling" when it displayed such poor skill at handling its own "turd" - and have to downgrade to its more familiar "mud" ?