If you are leaving Singapore, where will you go?!
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Originally posted by Lionoasis:
Hi,
That's good to know... I have nothing against her as a person, but if I were to put it diplomatically, her frequency is too far from mine...
Thanks for telling me...hope you enjoy this thread...
Well thought you should know his other names were Ah Poh or Ah Chia .....and its more of a "He" I find his writing too masculine, and he continues to evolve in different names... -
I would live in United States Of America. I would rather live in a chaotic place full of freedom than a peaceful place full of fear.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
Well thought you should know his other names were Ah Poh or Ah Chia .....and its more of a "He" I find his writing too masculine, and he continues to evolve in different names...Then I putty HIM as he is definitely craving for attention, has a lot of rage in him (that's why he is putting people down all the time), forced to assume a woman's identity just to gain temporary neutral treatment, and finally he is STILL rejected due to his unacceptible behaviour...
Pitty, pitty, pitty...hope he learns.
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Originally posted by sweet_place:
I would live in United States Of America. I would rather live in a chaotic place full of freedom than a peaceful place full of fear.
Hi,
Have you lived there, for how long?
To Others,
Again, I am not trying to be a know all "country expert", but really, things ain't what you think if you haven't lived in a country (travelling there often does not count). Just my two cents worth, take it or leave it.
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Calling ALL Well Travelled Singaporeans,
Too often I have read (am sure you do too) of people wanting to move to other countries for this and that reason. Some of these people have valid reasons, but some are either just too misguided or too young to know what the world is all about.
For all people that this posts is directed to, hope you can join me and share with our fellow Singaporeans our experience in foreign countries, so that this forum creates more positive outcome - more informed and educated fellow citizens - rather than being reduced to a whinners corner (does not apply to all - totally agreed).
So please, step right up, and do our part! Instead of reading passively, we can actually do something about it.
Thank you in advance!
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I would still prefer to be in singapore because first of all, there is not much natural disasters around here. Even if earthquakes, its not affecting us very much. Also there are no seasons, and whole year round we get the sun. Lastly, since i have been staying in singapore for so many years, I would just continue staying here.
However, I do believe it is a great experience to try staying overseas as well. Be it in the europe, america, asia, australia or africa. It is definitely a rich experience to try out the culture of other people and experience how others around the world live their lives.
I had stayed in America before for 4 months, and it was wonderful. Totally different from singapore. The pace is much slower. Anyway I am not staying at nyc or other major cities. Interacting with other people and getting know more about them if definitely great. Further more it allows you to experience different climates as well.
I would definitely wish to try staying australia, in africa as well as taiwan or europe.
Best is to have some relatives in the countries you want to visit and then go over and look them up.
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There are many cities out there with no natural disasters as well.
Also, there is this interesting issue with the earthquake in Indonesia. The epicenter seems to be moving closer to Singapore every year. From 2002, 800km away, to the recent one, 570km away.
Anyway, it's each person's choice. My choice for not being in Singapore are as follows:
Negative Points of Singapore
- Too high a price to pay for perceived security and safety. For just one advantage, have to give up my freedom and being suppressed by the PAP
- Suppressed wages in Singapore. I know I can earn much more, and even though I was amongst the top 10% of salaries in Singapore, it is still suppressed
- Unequal opportunities. Opportunities (regardless of performance) given to so-called elites like scholars and people related to certain people. I was also a scholar but I gave it all up because I did not believe in favortism. I prefer to be judged by my talents, not by my background.
- Citizens being treated like 2nd-class. There is no difference then being in Singapore and being 2nd-class somewhere else.
- Age discrimination. Once you hit 40, you are told that you are now stupid and hence have to lower your salary expectations. This doesn't apply to certain groups of people (ie the PAP), who have an iron rice bowl year in, year out.
- Lousy choices of shopping, groceries and entertainment. Everywhere, its Giordano, G2000, etc. Going to one shopping mall means you covered almost 70-80% of what shops there are in other malls. Groceries are severely limited, and entertainment is largely limited as well. The only thing good about Singapore is hawker food, which is also becoming bad, given the kind of price increases we see in a short span of time.
Positive Points of being elsewhere
- I enjoy working and living in an international environment. Where we get to interact with people from diverse nationalities and culture. Singapore is too small to provide such an experience. Though the govt tries to import foreign talent, the foreign talent quality is a huge question mark.
- I enjoy living in a country where it is huge and there are so many places to go and explore. In Singapore, go east go Changi, go west to Tuas, go North go Woodlands, any further goes into Malaysia. There isn't much space to have fun
- I enjoy living in a city where there are endless options of shopping, huge variety of groceries with endless amounts of flavours. There is just so much to sample, so much to do.
- I enjoy living in a city where the cost of living is not artifically high like in Singapore. I get branded stuff at a fraction of a price to what we pay in Singapore. Groceries are also cheaper.
And then, there is one last thing, the question of where Singapore will be in 30 years time. If I have a kid, I most definitely would not want him to be tied down in Singapore, because things may be vastly different in 2 to 3 decades. I do not have faith in Singapore continuing to be ahead of others in the near future, because our leaders are now stagnating, continously singing praises of what they DID, and not focusing on what they SHOULD BE doing for the future.
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because our leaders are now stagnating, continously singing praises of what they DID, and not focusing on what they SHOULD BE doing for the future.
You nail it......
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HMMM....immigrate cuz there is no hope of ever setting up and owning a business and due to the 40 years old age job discrimination during an interview in spore.the gov of spore cant help its own folks in spore even.its based on merit they say.....then they say we need foreign talents they say(all age 20 years old or 30 age range).then they say u need to pay more for the best .they say this and that at our expense,youth,intelligence,prototype construction time and other more important time we need to use in this short time we have on this planet.then they say we need to go for army individual performance test or we get scolded by army officers after we finish our work at the local factories.then the army says we need to return back to camp 3 days a week after work at factories to do running,jogging,mass exercises and other athelete trainings for 3 hrs every time in a hard to reach stadium.to reach those places, transport would be 1.5 hours total!thatsts 4.5 hrs wasted after work.if i ended work at factory at 7pm i would only be back at 11pm.that only leaves me with 6hrs sleep before i go back to werk at factory!!and what bout dinner??i havent even had mah dinner yet!!!and if i miss out or dont go to those damn athelete training....i would be fined $500 initially and jailed for subsequent absentisms.
what a waste of my time and effort.
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Originally posted by Lionoasis:
Calling ALL Well Travelled Singaporeans,
Too often I have read (am sure you do too) of people wanting to move to other countries for this and that reason. Some of these people have valid reasons, but some are either just too misguided or too young to know what the world is all about.
For all people that this posts is directed to, hope you can join me and share with our fellow Singaporeans our experience in foreign countries, so that this forum creates more positive outcome - more informed and educated fellow citizens - rather than being reduced to a whinners corner (does not apply to all - totally agreed).
So please, step right up, and do our part! Instead of reading passively, we can actually do something about it.
Thank you in advance!
Well said, Lionoasis, and I hope positive outcome means we are more aware of life outside of Singapore vs inside, but of course, this differ from people to people depending on their experience overseas, and it will be difficult to compare ALL the good things about living in the world outside Singapore with ALL the not so good thing in Singapore. The reality of life is that we can't have the cake and eat it.
I lived in China (4 years) and Canada (only 14 months).
First, ADJUSTMENT: Like in singapore, I have to travel out of my base in these countries, so to me life is not so different. But it is a lot of adjustment for my family, especially my wife. Looking for place near to school, to my office, to amenities...(more difficult when my office was not in the city), making new friends, get used to all kind of people....in the end, Singapore is where my family will call home.
if you are single, should be easy. If your children grown up, also easy.
Second, MERGING INTO LOCAL COMMUNITY. I want a chinese lifestyle, so shopping, dinning...all ended up in China town, HK; to my canadian colleagues, we are still chinese, just different; to the shanghainese, we are also Chinese, but different, so we ended up among the very small Singaporean community, hahaha....
if you are single, easy, if your children grown up, also easy.
Thirdly, LOOKING FOR NEW JOB. it is very different comparing salaries from statistic and actual situation. Got a job here and go there is easy, go there find a job, depends....washing dishes gets quite a lot of money.
if you are prepared to just find any job and make a living, the western country is better, but if you want to pursue your career and do what you studied, it will depend on which town or city you live, and what you study.
Finally, MEDICAL AND EMERGENCY. It is the same everywhere, you need insurance. This you really have to find out yourself, where you stay and what are the rules. In Singapore, no insurance still can do. In Shanghai, also can do. In Canada, no can do. You get what you pay.
and I prefer to pay tax in Singapore.
I don't have problem talking about any politics, going to church (even in China), in Singapore, Canada and China. It all depends on who I speak to.
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Originally posted by Lionoasis:
Calling ALL Well Travelled Singaporeans,
Too often I have read (am sure you do too) of people wanting to move to other countries for this and that reason. Some of these people have valid reasons, but some are either just too misguided or too young to know what the world is all about.
For all people that this posts is directed to, hope you can join me and share with our fellow Singaporeans our experience in foreign countries, so that this forum creates more positive outcome - more informed and educated fellow citizens - rather than being reduced to a whinners corner (does not apply to all - totally agreed).
So please, step right up, and do our part! Instead of reading passively, we can actually do something about it.
Thank you in advance!
Lionoasis, I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, so help me out here.
As far as I can tell, the raison d'etre of this thread is to enlighten "are either just too misguided or too young to know what the world is all about". That being the case, you have a Catch 22 here: whatever information any of these people glean from any discussion in this thread is secondhand at best. Put bluntly, anything anyone learns from here is simply a case of, "well, someone on the internet told me ...".
For argument's sake, let's just accept that since there's no better alternative at hand, short of sending these people to other countries to live and find things out for themselves. We come to a second issue, namely how the topic is being framed.
Right from the thread title, the tone set in this thread is problematic. In particular, I'm talking about the "if you are leaving Singapore" part of the title. Two ways of viewing the topic of immigration issues is that you are either moving to another country, or you are moving away from the one you are in. At face value, this seems to be a hair-splitting distinction, but it has a significant effect upon the decision-making process.
Frederick Herzberg has an interesting take on this situation, making the distinction between being dissatisfied and simply not being satisfied, terming the relevant factors hygiene and motivation factors respectively. The key distinction here is that hygiene factors relate to issues that need to meet a threshold level to avoid dissatisfaction, but that in themselves do not actually provide satisfaction. We're not talking about a continuum from dissatisfaction to satisfaction. Instead, we have two separate dimensions, one going from "dissatisfied" to "not dissatisfied", and another going from "not satisfied" to "satisfied".
So, how does this fit into the current pictutre?
If we're talking about leaving a country, we're talking about avoiding dissatisfaction - not about seeking satisfaction. Certainly there are issues such as unacceptable crime rates in various countries that attend to the dissatisfaction factor, but the expected or attained level of satisfaction can outweigh the dissatisfaction. This has already been reflected in this thread where people have said that despite the drawbacks of countries, the attractions would still make them want to stay there.
In addition, if we're just talking about dissatisfaction driving the decision to leave a country, what's there to say that satisfaction can be found in the destination country?
Turning that around, if one decides to move to another country, does it mean that one is dissatisfied with the original country, rather than being attracted by the satisfaction that can be found in another country? This is an important issue, because a fair number of people here seem to make the unsubstantiated assumption that immigration is necessarily an insult to the original country, and they get defensive about it and start a bun fight.
If you do want to achieve your stated objective, it's important that you clearly frame your approach to this issue.
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ok....gentlemen.....what and when is the solution happening?
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the political system has to be upgraded and the politicians init go for further training if its meant to go forward.now its like tilting n falling bavkwards!
ACK!
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unfortunately the people init the politicians cant go for further trainings as there are none just like those people who werk in the factories in spore.the training is only found in the werkplace and not from schools anymore.
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to lionasis,
setting up a company n oz iis way easier than setting up one in spore.but the market has to be international.
its extremely hot in oz during summer.often as hot as thailand with 38C temp.
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North Pole
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
Well thought you should know his other names were Ah Poh or Ah Chia .....and its more of a "He" I find his writing too masculine, and he continues to evolve in different names...
angel3070 is not angel7030. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
Lionoasis, I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, so help me out here.
As far as I can tell, the raison d'etre of this thread is to enlighten "are either just too misguided or too young to know what the world is all about". That being the case, you have a Catch 22 here: whatever information any of these people glean from any discussion in this thread is secondhand at best. Put bluntly, anything anyone learns from here is simply a case of, "well, someone on the internet told me ...".
For argument's sake, let's just accept that since there's no better alternative at hand, short of sending these people to other countries to live and find things out for themselves. We come to a second issue, namely how the topic is being framed.
Right from the thread title, the tone set in this thread is problematic. In particular, I'm talking about the "if you are leaving Singapore" part of the title. Two ways of viewing the topic of immigration issues is that you are either moving to another country, or you are moving away from the one you are in. At face value, this seems to be a hair-splitting distinction, but it has a significant effect upon the decision-making process.
Frederick Herzberg has an interesting take on this situation, making the distinction between being dissatisfied and simply not being satisfied, terming the relevant factors hygiene and motivation factors respectively. The key distinction here is that hygiene factors relate to issues that need to meet a threshold level to avoid dissatisfaction, but that in themselves do not actually provide satisfaction. We're not talking about a continuum from dissatisfaction to satisfaction. Instead, we have two separate dimensions, one going from "dissatisfied" to "not dissatisfied", and another going from "not satisfied" to "satisfied".
So, how does this fit into the current pictutre?
If we're talking about leaving a country, we're talking about avoiding dissatisfaction - not about seeking satisfaction. Certainly there are issues such as unacceptable crime rates in various countries that attend to the dissatisfaction factor, but the expected or attained level of satisfaction can outweigh the dissatisfaction. This has already been reflected in this thread where people have said that despite the drawbacks of countries, the attractions would still make them want to stay there.
In addition, if we're just talking about dissatisfaction driving the decision to leave a country, what's there to say that satisfaction can be found in the destination country?
Turning that around, if one decides to move to another country, does it mean that one is dissatisfied with the original country, rather than being attracted by the satisfaction that can be found in another country? This is an important issue, because a fair number of people here seem to make the unsubstantiated assumption that immigration is necessarily an insult to the original country, and they get defensive about it and start a bun fight.
If you do want to achieve your stated objective, it's important that you clearly frame your approach to this issue.
Hi,
Quite a lot written here. Thank you and I like posts like this, whether in support or against my opinion, is irrelevant. I guess TWO things are requested to be clarified, and I shall provide me answers in the following short and specific manner (probably injustice to you as they will be short compared to your questions):
- Where I stand? Well the thread was title and angled "If you are leaving Singapore..." because I read many people's posts expressing their dissatisfaction about our country and many of them expressed their desire to seek greener pastures (I do have other thread from which these remarks were made known to me). I gathered from the way of the words, that the remarks were made by either young people or people who have not been well exposed (just speaking for myself obviously), and this thread is meant to be a small challenge to them to tell us which countries are a better fit to them? And why? I would expect most of them would not be able to come back with a well substantiated answer. I am proven to be correct. More importantly, I hope to create an awareness within themselves that they are not ready to make such decision for themselves.
- Higher Satisfaction vs Avoiding Disatisfaction? Well, we are all motivated by different needs, and we approach life proactively or reactively, between these two words lies the answer for most people. I cannot answer for them nor do I attempt to intervene. I have lived outside Singapore for 20 years, and just feel a sense of duty to share so that people can realize that things are different when transpired through the media or word of mouth (including mine), and they should seek to understand one of the most important issues in their lifes - like migrating - by taking a responsible and practical approach and see it for themselves, before any harsh decision is made. While people don't move away just like that, but at least, they should know where our country stands relative to other countries.
In short, "education by challenge". Hope this answers your querries, but if you have a better approach please feel free to let me know...thanks.
End of day, whether people choose to stay or to leave is NOT my concern, they have their rights. Just know what they are doing, that's all.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Well said, Lionoasis, and I hope positive outcome means we are more aware of life outside of Singapore vs inside, but of course, this differ from people to people depending on their experience overseas, and it will be difficult to compare ALL the good things about living in the world outside Singapore with ALL the not so good thing in Singapore. The reality of life is that we can't have the cake and eat it.
I lived in China (4 years) and Canada (only 14 months).
First, ADJUSTMENT: Like in singapore, I have to travel out of my base in these countries, so to me life is not so different. But it is a lot of adjustment for my family, especially my wife. Looking for place near to school, to my office, to amenities...(more difficult when my office was not in the city), making new friends, get used to all kind of people....in the end, Singapore is where my family will call home.
if you are single, should be easy. If your children grown up, also easy.
Second, MERGING INTO LOCAL COMMUNITY. I want a chinese lifestyle, so shopping, dinning...all ended up in China town, HK; to my canadian colleagues, we are still chinese, just different; to the shanghainese, we are also Chinese, but different, so we ended up among the very small Singaporean community, hahaha....
if you are single, easy, if your children grown up, also easy.
Thirdly, LOOKING FOR NEW JOB. it is very different comparing salaries from statistic and actual situation. Got a job here and go there is easy, go there find a job, depends....washing dishes gets quite a lot of money.
if you are prepared to just find any job and make a living, the western country is better, but if you want to pursue your career and do what you studied, it will depend on which town or city you live, and what you study.
Finally, MEDICAL AND EMERGENCY. It is the same everywhere, you need insurance. This you really have to find out yourself, where you stay and what are the rules. In Singapore, no insurance still can do. In Shanghai, also can do. In Canada, no can do. You get what you pay.
and I prefer to pay tax in Singapore.
I don't have problem talking about any politics, going to church (even in China), in Singapore, Canada and China. It all depends on who I speak to.
Hi,
Coincidentally, I have live in these two countries - China (still living here) & Canada. Thanks for sharing and I am sure our readers will benefit from reading them IF they are opened minded and tuned into the messages...
Thanks for the support again.
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Originally posted by Lionoasis:
Hi,
Quite a lot written here. Thank you and I like posts like this, whether in support or against my opinion, is irrelevant. I guess TWO things are requested to be clarified, and I shall provide me answers in the following short and specific manner (probably injustice to you as they will be short compared to your questions):
- Where I stand? Well the thread was title and angled "If you are leaving Singapore..." because I read many people's posts expressing their dissatisfaction about our country and many of them expressed their desire to seek greener pastures (I do have other thread from which these remarks were made known to me). I gathered from the way of the words, that the remarks were made by either young people or people who have not been well exposed (just speaking for myself obviously), and this thread is meant to be a small challenge to them to tell us which countries are a better fit to them? And why? I would expect most of them would not be able to come back with a well substantiated answer. I am proven to be correct. More importantly, I hope to create an awareness within themselves that they are not ready to make such decision for themselves.
- Higher Satisfaction vs Avoiding Disatisfaction? Well, we are all motivated by different needs, and we approach life proactively or reactively, between these two words lies the answer for most people. I cannot answer for them nor do I attempt to intervene. I have lived outside Singapore for 20 years, and just feel a sense of duty to share so that people can realize that things are different when transpired through the media or word of mouth (including mine), and they should seek to understand one of the most important issues in their lifes - like migrating - by taking a responsible and practical approach and see it for themselves, before any harsh decision is made. While people don't move away just like that, but at least, they should know where our country stands relative to other countries.
In short, "education by challenge". Hope this answers your querries, but if you have a better approach please feel free to let me know...thanks.
End of day, whether people choose to stay or to leave is NOT my concern, they have their rights. Just know what they are doing, that's all.
"by taking a responsible and practical approach and see it for themselves"
responsible to who? your country or to some people that are close to you?
what would you do when you sick and tired of the people in this concrete jungle where one has to circumspect every move he is making?
I would like to go to a place where I can afford to make mistakes and live like a human.
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Originally posted by seyKai:
"by taking a responsible and practical approach and see it for themselves"
responsible to who? your country or to some people that are close to you?
what would you do when you sick and tired of the people in this concrete jungle where one has to circumspect every move he is making?
I would like to go to a place where I can afford to make mistakes and live like a human.
Again, we make decisions for ourselves, not for anybody else. Makes no difference if you decide to be a capitalist or a hermit, as long as you are responsible for yourself, and you are happy with your decision. If living in Singapore is inhumane for you (though I find it difficult to believe), then you have every right to be human if you choose to be...
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to lionasis,
eh??greener pastures in just one place??why cant we have more greener pastures instead of just one as long as we are comfortable with them?its like a backup plan.if you went skydiving from 7000 feet and your main parachute fails...........u still have your backup parachute so u dont end up as prata when u land.dont be too hasty on making a good decision.
it all depends on the unpredictable situation one is living in......
but definitely having just one main parachute if its somewhat in bad shape would mean ...............................certain death depending on factors involved. if u intend to be alive both main and standby parachutes should be in good condition.however recently fer the last decade i noticed holes in my main parachute.should i repair it or get a new parachute?...i still have a standby parachute that werks.
however if your parachute is good then you dont really need to fix it or rely on your backup parachute....if its going to break apart for no reason one fine day then u still need yer backup!
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Originally posted by HITMAN11111111111:
to lionasis,
eh??greener pastures in just one place??why cant we have more greener pastures instead of just one as long as we are comfortable with them?its like a backup plan.if you went skydiving from 7000 feet and your main parachute fails...........u still have your backup parachute so u dont end up as prata when u land.dont be too hasty on making a good decision.
it all depends on the unpredictable situation one is living in......
but definitely having just one main parachute if its somewhat in bad shape would mean ...............................certain death depending on factors involved. if u intend to be alive both main and standby parachutes should be in good condition.however recently fer the last decade i noticed holes in my main parachute.should i repair it or get a new parachute?...i still have a standby parachute that werks.
however if your parachute is good then you dont really need to fix it or rely on your backup parachute....if its going to break apart for no reason one fine day then u still need yer backup!
Hi,
If your comments are directed at me, it is PERFECTLY OK to have one or more parachutes, it is YOUR CHOICE. Dun know who many times I have to keep repeating myself...
Sigh....it is NOT ABOUT YOUR CHOICE but the MANNER YOU MAKE YOUR CHOICE....very big difference here - you have to hit the target not miss the target HITMAN1111111....your Rifle needs zeroing lah...
One can live in a drain today and a toilet tomorrow if he is happy...
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