Sir, would you send in the army
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Originally posted by Quincey:
Well, in Plato's Republic, only the guardians of the state know what is best for the people. The auxilaries of the state, born and bred for their role, safeguards both the internal and external security of the state. As for the rest of us well, just stick to our role as common folk, and the tripartite model shall function without a blip.
I suddenly realised some of the forumers here have very chim english n very chim brains =) Good thing!
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Originally posted by Medicated Oil:
The old man and HIS team have created the system and with the HARD work and sweat of the people, the national reserves was accumulated.
But, the national reserves belong to all singapore-born singaporeans and should never be used as a tool by any ruling party to stay in power.
This is the most important point.
So, with the huge loss that have taken place for the past few years, the old man and his group of elite paper scholars should apologise to the people and pay up instead of using it to threaten the people.
If you are truly competent and supported by the people, your party can never be toppled.
There should be nothing to fear.
Ur argument is flawed.
Say a young officer let a platoon of soldiers in war, succeeding is missions after missions, occcasionally failing some, occasionally losing some men in his platoon. Sometimes, some men in his platoon will go AWOL. Sometimes, some men hate the young officer to the guts because of the way he does things. Eventually, the young officer is promoted to a General after a few decades. One day, he lead a major mission and failed. Perhaps the failed mission caused him to lose a few medals, and some men. But the public is calling for him to cough out the lost medals and the lives of the men back?
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I think MM Lee here is speaking as a member of PAP, and not as a leader of Singapore.
Meaning, he seperates the two roles.
If he is speaking as a minister, then he would pray that the new government is a good one to keep SG growing , but as a leader of PAP, it is completely in the PAP's best interests if the new government is weak..
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Originally posted by SPDCP:
I think MM Lee here is speaking as a member of PAP, and not as a leader of Singapore.
Meaning, he seperates the two roles.
If he is speaking as a minister, then he would pray that the new government is a good one to keep SG growing , but as a leader of PAP, it is completely in the PAP's best interests if the new government is weak..
Whatever, his words will be remembered now and for generations to come. -
Originally posted by SPDCP:
I think MM Lee here is speaking as a member of PAP, and not as a leader of Singapore.
Meaning, he seperates the two roles.
If he is speaking as a minister, then he would pray that the new government is a good one to keep SG growing , but as a leader of PAP, it is completely in the PAP's best interests if the new government is weak..
good observation...LKY does alot of reverse physchology in his speech. Sometime the target audience is actually his young party member.
Sending army is actually a politically incorrect statement it rise the awareness to the young Pap. Many times you have to read deeper into his word he has overtime learn from the chinese.
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What are you doing in this Speaker's Corner at this time when you should be walking the streets looking for your homo-genius people ?
Is your Man suffering from erectile dysfunction with no other takers to your offers ?
Originally posted by angel7030:
if you created something thru your life time, let say you build a vast business empire, surely you will treasure it, as it was thru blood and sweat that you make it. Even if someone below u took over, you will also need to oversee the important decision. Same to LKY, Singapore is like a child, a baby brought up by him to a teenager then adult age. How can he not care for it. Even till his last breath, if singapore shake, he will wake up and make a decision.What pill did you swallow to regurgitate the verbiage that was dumped into the ocean space of your mind ?
Even China has passed legislation that require their seasoned 85 years veterans to step down from public office, and move into retirement so as not to obstruct the new generation of leaders from performing their tasks.
Is the talented elites not trustworthy enough to run the operations by themselves, or are there stronger reasons for the reluctance to go, and prefer staying on to harvest what he has sown over the years ?
It is best that the 85 year old keep his last breath to himself, as no one will be interest to give him any CPR if his last breath should falter.
Sincerely if you will to ask me, i too dun admire his life, so much stress, so much criticisms, insult and cursing on him, so much worrying, so old and still worrying and yet no one pity him for what he did in bringing what we are today, even to most sgforumers here, dun you realise that your present here with the ability to type english and surf internet are in some way connected to his effort of bring singapore up. Dun you realise that, certainly no one is perfect, not me, not you, not LKY. But the ability to make what we are today here, in this very moment, we should reserve some respect for him.
Can you know anything worthwhile about his life that allow you to admire ?
For a current wage of S$2.8 Million a year PLUS Pension since his official retirement age - is there any stress, or criticism, insults or curse that cannot be tolerated, when he is insulated in a refrigerated cocoon of 22 degrees Celcius all the waking hours ?
Did he bring Singapore up, or was it done by our grand-fathers and fathers, who helped him to overcome his bad decision to merge Singapore into Malaysia, and for his impetuous attitude towards the UMNO Politicians that resulted in Singapore being kicked out from the merger ?
Where was he for almost 10 days after Singapore was thrown out of the merger with Malaysia ?
Was it not a fact that Dr Toh Chin Chye, Dr Goh Keng Swee, S. Rajaratnam had held the Singapore Government together - as LKY was shattered and demoralised, and had to recuperate at a government chalet at Changi Point ?
How can you be perfect, considering the messed up life that you prefer to lead ?
Has anyone appointed you to speak for anyone else concerning their perfection ?
Should we respect him when he look at Singaporeans as dumb, as digits, and even as adult dogs that needs training ?
You sure know how to let your tail wag your body, make sure the wagging does not dislodge your brain from the huge cavity in your skull.
The human behavor is funny, for gal like me, see other boy seem to look more handsome than my bf, for guy, other girls seem better than their gf, and more so are those uncles who alway said bad about their wife when they chat with me. You live in this house and said the other house is better, you drive this car, but alway see the other car is better, same goes to leadership of singapore, now you hate and dislike LKY and think other are better, I can guarantee you that the day the opposition take over, you may miss LKY, then at that time you said actually LKy is good and all those praises. After all, we are humans, satisfaction never exist in our soul, and that is why we progress, and that is why we failed to realise what is contention.
Is it funny in any way to look at the grass as being greener on the other side ?
Is that not part of the Human Spirit to never be satisfied with the status quo ?
Can human ever progress to achieve what we have, if we are so easily contented ?
You must be truly dumb to believe the stories that the men tell you about their wife, and all said when you have loaded them with your fiery juice at your bar.
Do you provide guarantees for a defective LKY - who failed on his promises on all the decisions that he has forced onto Singaporeans ?
There will be a long line of warranty claims that stretched back to 1965, and the first claim made will be for the troubles that he created with a failed merger when he could not hold our relationship with the UMNO politicians when we were part of Malaysia even as more wise voices have told him to be more cautious with his wilfull decision to merge.
The next claim will be the stupidity in his 2 child policy that stopped our parents from giving us a bigger family, and for the necessity to compete harder today as he has to open the doors to allow new immigrants to be citizens in Singapore.
The next claim will be on the CPF release plans which has been modified from payout at age 55, to a continuous delay to the payout date till one reaches age 85 - if we can get there without seeing our CPF saving being sucked by the high hospital and health care charges of the government managed hospitals.
Are you capable of handling the guarantee that you want to make on behalf of LKY ?
You must be the first Singapore captive that is suffering the Stockholm Syndrome.
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You must be the first Singapore captive that is suffering the Stockholm Syndrome.
Ah come on Atobe that is really extreme and unnecessary. Angel7030 is in no way a Jaycee Dugard.
While you make some good points I don't agree on all of them. The current problems facing most Singaporeans is not just local but international because of the systemic breakdown of world capitalism. Even if the PAP lose an election to the opposition party, what will change? Can you guarantee a more egalitarian society? What is your political perspective besides being business friendly? Same strategy, different tactics, status quo remains and nothing changes.
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With the benefit of hindsight, that's like telling the last Ching Dynasty citizens that a Republic is not good for China, they should remain under the control of the Ching Emperor, because the President of the Republic will act in the same despotic manner as the Ching Emperor.
If everybody thinks like you do, I guess there is no need for the different political parties, just one political party will do, since they are all the same. Why should US have Democrats and Republicans? Just one party will do, there won't be any need for an election too. Since no election, why not just turn it into another Burma (Myanmar), where we have one strong arm General leading the country.
Under your perspective, election is an exercise in futility. Let's scrap the election process and turn Singapore into a Monarchy.
Whenever you have no competition, things will NEVER improve. Competitive rivalry leads to higher consumer surplus.
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many decades ao, lky said he will rise from the grave if he finds sg heading the wrong way, i reckon he now realises that he's no jesus christ so the best thing is to leave a political labyrinth....
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Originally posted by deepak.c:If everybody thinks like you do, I guess there is no need for the different political parties, just one political party will do, since they are all the same. Why should US have Democrats and Republicans? Just one party will do, there won't be any need for an election too. Since no election, why not just turn it into another Burma (Myanmar), where we have one strong arm General leading the country.
That is not what I meant, doesn't anyone else see the decay in representative democracy? Why should the political parties hold absolute power? They only represent their own interests first and foremost, not the will of the people. Why shouldn't democracy be practiced at every levels of society? Citizens should play a bigger role in government rather than let everything be dealt by our representative party. That way, policies will benefit the majority of people.
Competitive rivalry leads to higher consumer surplus; economically it does at what expense? At the expense of social and environmental conditions.
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Originally posted by hotgunner:
That is not what I meant, doesn't anyone else see the decay in representative democracy? Why should the political parties hold absolute power? They only represent their own interests first and foremost, not the will of the people. Why shouldn't democracy be practiced at every levels of society? Citizens should play a bigger role in government rather than let everything be dealt by our representative party. That way, policies will benefit the majority of people.
Competitive rivalry leads to higher consumer surplus; economically it does at what expense? At the expense of social and environmental conditions.
You are definitely 100% not going to get citizen representation under the current regime, LKY has said before, you guys can talk all you want, but he is not going to take any of your issues into consideration.
Ceteris paribus.
Under monopoly and perfect competition, both produce the same quantities, both will be contributing to social (don't know why this is here) and environmental conditions, but perfect competition leads to better consumer welfare.
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
You are definitely 100% not going to get citizen representation under the current regime, LKY has said before, you guys can talk all you want, but he is not going to take any of your issues into consideration.
Ceteris paribus.
Under monopoly and perfect competition, both produce the same quantities, both will be contributing to social (don't know why this is here) and environmental conditions, but perfect competition leads to better consumer welfare.
So which opposition party in Singapore will allow citizen representation?
Ceteris paribus? Whose side are you on, the normal hardworking citizens of Singapore or the business elites? Under monopoly and "perfect" competition, rich gets richer, poor gets poorer. Unfortunately the middle class will fall into the latter category as the financial crisis intensifies.
Carpe diem. Eventually people need to take matters into their own hands.
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
With the benefit of hindsight, that's like telling the last Ching Dynasty citizens that a Republic is not good for China, they should remain under the control of the Ching Emperor, because the President of the Republic will act in the same despotic manner as the Ching Emperor.
If everybody thinks like you do, I guess there is no need for the different political parties, just one political party will do, since they are all the same. Why should US have Democrats and Republicans? Just one party will do, there won't be any need for an election too. Since no election, why not just turn it into another Burma (Myanmar), where we have one strong arm General leading the country.
Under your perspective, election is an exercise in futility. Let's scrap the election process and turn Singapore into a Monarchy.
Whenever you have no competition, things will NEVER improve. Competitive rivalry leads to higher consumer surplus.
I wonder if they would agree with you that the Qing Dynasty was worse than the Communist Regime...Like you said, benefit of hindsight.
Competition in the commerical world may indeed benefit the consumer, but not neccessarily in terms of the government when vetos may be politically motivated, rather than geninue concern for the masses.
While i can agree with you that things would never improve without competition, i feel your faith in it has taken it to the other extreme.
That said, if the opposition wins given the current rules and settings they would not be able to do anything concrete for at least 2 election terms and actually it would be easy for the entrenched PAP ministers (since that the President is theirs, the opposition cannot remove them) to sabotage their efforts to make our lives better.
I wonder if your support for them would be as strong after that.
We are so eager about letting the opposition win just 1 election we seemed to have neglected that they would not have no concrete power for quite a while after that, that they would not be able to deliver their promises.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
if you created something thru your life time, let say you build a vast business empire, surely you will treasure it, as it was thru blood and sweat that you make it. Even if someone below u took over, you will also need to oversee the important decision. Same to LKY, Singapore is like a child, a baby brought up by him to a teenager then adult age. How can he not care for it. Even till his last breath, if singapore shake, he will wake up and make a decision.You aren't very respectful to your parents and grandparents. Please give them due credit, for without them, Singapore would not be what it is today.
There are many brains behind the success of Singapore, NOT just LKY's.
If you cannot even understand this, there is little to discuss about, given your superficial way of analysing things
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
I wonder if they would agree with you that the Qing Dynasty was worse than the Communist Regime...Like you said, benefit of hindsight.
Competition in the commerical world may indeed benefit the consumer, but not neccessarily in terms of the government when vetos may be politically motivated, rather than geninue concern for the masses.
While i can agree with you that things would never improve without competition, i feel your faith in it has taken it to the other extreme.
That said, if the opposition wins given the current rules and settings they would not be able to do anything concrete for at least 2 election terms and actually it would be easy for the entrenched PAP ministers (since that the President is theirs, the opposition cannot remove them) to sabotage their efforts to make our lives better.
I wonder if your support for them would be as strong after that.
We are so eager about letting the opposition win just 1 election we seemed to have neglected that they would not have no concrete power for quite a while after that, that they would not be able to deliver their promises.
What was the population of the Chinese population under the Qing Dynasty and the population under the Republic (then snatch away by the Communist Regime)?
If circumstances under the Communist Regime wasn't favourable, I am sure the population would not have increased exponentially. Under the Qing Dynasty, all the resources was under the Officials & Nobility (it's like all the resources being held by less than 0.01% of the population *i am just guessing the figures*)
You should watch History Channel, they showed the squalid living conditions prior to the revolution, it was horrid.
"The revolution was brought about by a number of factors, including but not limited to Qing corruption, Western and Japanese subjugation, the growth of local spheres of power, Warlordism, increased poverty amongst the populace, and Chinese intellectuals' growing exposure to Western schools of thought."
Do you think the current regime has a genuine concern for the citizens at heart?
Vetos can indeed be politically motivated, but then again it's up to both sides to present their cases to the citizens and let the citizens decide whether it's politically motivated or the policies do indeed have their interest at heart. At present, you only have ONE party presenting their story. How can you ensure that THEY have our interest at heart? The current political situation is but only a Blind Man's Bluff.I always believe that competition will lead to better quality, ceteris paribus. If you have another choice, the dominant political party will feel threatened and act in a more responsible way. I ask this of you. If say you are the Party Leader of the dominant party, would you act more responsibly if your position is threatened by an equal strength political party?
I do not believe that I have taken competition to extremes, it has always been like this, with competition things become better. It has been so in the Natural World with Darwin's survival of the fittest (Natural Selection), it has been so in the Business World and Political World. There are certainly more advanced economies in the world with two or afew dominant political parties than a single dominant political party. Surely if it's not beneficial, it would not have existed so long and perhaps if that's the case, most advanced economies should all be single political party government like Singapore.
That's why I said if PAP loses the next election, it is most likely a "Poison Pill" strategy, because everything is so booby trapped, the chances of them doing a good job would be minimal at best. It's like the PAP set them up for failure.
Even if they can't deliver their promises, I would have known the set of circumstances the PAP booby trapped them for, I will still give them my support. I can't fault the oppositions for not helping me because PAP handcuffed their hands behind their backs.
Whatever enacted by Parliament can always be repealed by parliament if you have the majority.
Perhaps a National Referendum might help also.
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
You aren't very respectful to your parents and grandparents. Please give them due credit, for without them, Singapore would not be what it is today.
There are many brains behind the success of Singapore, NOT just LKY's.
If you cannot even understand this, there is little to discuss about, given your superficial way of analysing things
She is idol worshipping LKY her lau hero.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Is the national reserves hard earned money by LKY and his team ?
Or should the national reserves be the hard earned money taken from the hard labor of Singaporeans as wage slaves in a system created by LKY and his team ?
The National Reserves belong to Singapore, and if Singaporeans elect a different political party to form the next government instead of the PAP - that is the will of the people, and the machinery of the country should continue to operate with the money that has been taken from the people.
This is pure petty politics from a petty old man - afraid of his finite time on earth, and afraid of the finite ability to control what is not his to take along.
This is the Third World Mentality of a Third World Politician.
Singapore will be in trouble with the continued government formed by the PAP, as the arrogance is already spoken clearly and placed on record.
of cuz hard earned..they tried means and ways to make singaporeans work hard to earn money for them..though the true labor comes from the people..we cant forget its the schemes of the govt that makes it possbile to fill themselves with money..
income tax..why am i taxed for my income?i worked hard for it.you jus levy a tax and i must give you my money??what difference is it from robbery?
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Originally posted by Quincey:
Well, in Plato's Republic, only the guardians of the state know what is best for the people. The auxilaries of the state, born and bred for their role, safeguards both the internal and external security of the state. As for the rest of us well, just stick to our role as common folk, and the tripartite model shall function without a blip.
sounds like the aryans caste system
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Originally posted by hotgunner:
Ah come on Atobe that is really extreme and unnecessary. Angel7030 is in no way a Jaycee Dugard.
While you make some good points I don't agree on all of them. The current problems facing most Singaporeans is not just local but international because of the systemic breakdown of world capitalism. Even if the PAP lose an election to the opposition party, what will change? Can you guarantee a more egalitarian society? What is your political perspective besides being business friendly? Same strategy, different tactics, status quo remains and nothing changes.
When you have been through the daily rituals of the insufferable angel, you will surely be most certain that she is no Jaycee Dugard; then again neither was the rich brat Patricia Hearst.Still, both are weaklings drawn to the aura of the omnipotent and unable to remove themselves from the silent dangers in the magnetic field that suck the senses from their ordinary existence.
You are right that the current problems in Singapore is not just local but due to the breakdown in the globalised capitalist system.
It is easy to resign to this fact.
However, why should Singapore be caught in the quagmire ?
Do we not have the world higest paid govenment who justified their position from their boast in their unique elitist talent brimming with the ultimate in meritocracy that can be found ?
Should they not have seen the writings on the wall that even shrewd private investors have already prepared themselves even before the storm came ?
This is not even said with the benefit of hindsight, as these were on record back in 1987, 1997 and even as early as 2003 and 2004.
If we see the changes made in South Korea, and the changes in Indonesia - where the strong arm rule of Park Chung Hee and Suharto were removed - it saw the spirit of the South Koreans released, which resulted in new found pride of themselves as a nation able to participate in the political process that determine their own future.
Similarly, despite the cacophony of over 200 Million voices, Indonesia today is far better than the days of Suharto when this family rule over the self-proclaimed fiefdom.
Switzerland was once promoted by GCT as a model for Singapore's hope for Standard of Living to be achieved.
Somehow, that hope was quietly moved from center stage even as we are straddled with the Swiss Cost of Living without being anywhere near achieving the Swiss Standard of Living.
Conveniently, the Swiss Political System was never promoted as a model - even as it has successfully amalgamated their population of 7.4 Million different ethnicities that spread through a land locked mountainous country - with the citizens involved in the political process through frequent referendums that everyone has responsibility in.
Is it any wonder that despite the high costs of living in Switzerland, the ‘Swiss has a fertility rate of 1.48 children per woman’ (*1) compared to ‘Singapore’s fertility rate of 1.29 children per woman’ (*2) - which the PAP Government has continuously lamented to no effect ?
Other countries have similar political and social systems that allow Citizens to take control of their own political future, and responsible for their political relevance in a nation created for themselves - these include Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, and the new republics that managed to breakaway from old Russia.
These are the models that we could strive for in fullfilling the Pledge of building a Democratic Society based on Justice and Equality for Singaporeans - (equality not only in terms of rights to ethnic groups, but opportunities, welfare, employment, security to individuals, families, businesses, and political entities).
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
domon, glad to see your first posting here.
I am not the least surprised to know that for he mentioned before that there is no fairness for the oppositions. Moreover, for people who know his style and crap are aware he "probably" rules with iron fists, oppression, self serving and so on.
I gave him credit for his past contributions but at the same time it is sad the Singapore has such a leader.
So do we think he loves Singapore, the answer is obvious isn't it?
By the way, Singapore does not belong to him. Singapore is not = PAP
^^ agreed fully..time to move on..the mandate of heaven is lost..let us all vote for a better leader..me =)
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Originally posted by EarlNeo:
haha...
just like stepford wife?
if wanna play god, might as well go play sim...
he play sim he scared he kena depression...he work so hard to scheme only earn 1 country..sim jus draw painting and sell once awhile can party everyday..
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Originally posted by angel7030:
if you created something thru your life time, let say you build a vast business empire, surely you will treasure it, as it was thru blood and sweat that you make it. Even if someone below u took over, you will also need to oversee the important decision. Same to LKY, Singapore is like a child, a baby brought up by him to a teenager then adult age. How can he not care for it. Even till his last breath, if singapore shake, he will wake up and make a decision.Sincerely if you will to ask me, i too dun admire his life, so much stress, so much criticisms, insult and cursing on him, so much worrying, so old and still worrying and yet no one pity him for what he did in bringing what we are today, even to most sgforumers here, dun you realise that your present here with the ability to type english and surf internet are in some way connected to his effort of bring singapore up. Dun you realise that, certainly no one is perfect, not me, not you, not LKY. But the ability to make what we are today here, in this very moment, we should reserve some respect for him.
The human behavor is funny, for gal like me, see other boy seem to look more handsome than my bf, for guy, other girls seem better than their gf, and more so are those uncles who alway said bad about their wife when they chat with me. You live in this house and said the other house is better, you drive this car, but alway see the other car is better, same goes to leadership of singapore, now you hate and dislike LKY and think other are better, I can guarantee you that the day the opposition take over, you may miss LKY, then at that time you said actually LKy is good and all those praises. After all, we are humans, satisfaction never exist in our soul, and that is why we progress, and that is why we failed to realise what is contention.
i do agree that he spent much efforts to establish the lee dynasty..if it were me..by right i will not let it fall into the hands of others too..and siphon as much money for myself as possible..just like him.but thats wrong..a truly able emperor cannot do this..i dont see any ren yi in him.his kingdom will fall..
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Originally posted by Deino:
reminds me of Shinra
at least shinra got did in by sephy..whrs our hero to kill him off??haha
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if they wanted to fleece u dry of money the rates would have been much higher... sierra leone if im not mistaken.. lazy to google it.. has like 50% tax? ours only 17%.. lesser than what joseph taxed the egyptians.. 20%..
By right, taxes are supposed to make a country rich.. there is not a single country who got where it is today without taxes.. now, even if there is a new government, they would not remove taxes, might even increase cos they cant touch federal reserves without consent...
anyway, bitterness is not the way to go.. if we get rid of taxes, for sure someone will say "HEY! give us healthcare!" or " HEY! we need welfare! government not taking care of elderly!! " to do that, you need taxes... then we repeat the cycle over again... until finally no one needs to work, everyone can laze at home and still get free money... then singapore confirm down within 5 years.. It is impossible to please everyone, and those who feel short changed will go form a new political party.. then throw poo at each other.. goes on endlessly..
oh and please, the only reason they are in control for more than half a century is cos everyone else is too busy bitching about it, and not stepping up to take the torch..
to even tell your friends you wanna be the next PM = laughter, scorn, mocking
patriotism and loyalty is considered a fairy tale( fairy tale keep coming up now... LOL)
we dont even sing the anthem anymore in sec sch... just mumble or stand there stoned...
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The question is how many more years does LKY have left with.
Ask him to faster go to hell lah stop dreaming about sending what army