What will life be like if CPF is never implemented?
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Originally posted by hloc:
Yes... you DID NOT use your brain.....
1st - that quote was to highlight that as your pay increase.... so did the cost of the Flat.... that is call 'Inflation'.....
2nd - The 2009 HDB of $300K is because you are buying RESALE Flat instead of buying New Flat. A schoolmate of mine is getting his flat in 2011 near the S'pore Sport School in Woodlands at $186+K. Therefore, if you don't have the $$$$..... buy and then wait for newly built flats (2-3years to complete) instead of die die also want to buy resale at mature housing estate like AMK, Yishun, Toa Payoh...etc. Mature Estate will always cost more than new estate like Sengkang....
$8000 flat was in TOA PAYOH so and you are comparing with ULU WOODLANDS?
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Originally posted by seyKai:
$8000 flat was in TOA PAYOH so and you are comparing with ULU WOODLANDS?
lncase no one told you.... 40years ago TOA PAYOH & AMK is as ULU as it could be..... but you must be too little, make that, not born yet to know...... not your fault.
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Originally posted by hloc:
Wao Liao..... Don't you know the I meant making sure that I would finish payment before 55 ??!! Don't you know that if you finish payment by 55, you could use the half the price of your flat as part of the CPF condition (at least 120K inside) to withdraw half of your CPF money out (the rest of your money at 62.... for now).
30K is equivalent to 50-70K... u sure or not ?? Again don't you understand that I was trying to inform you that it was a big headache for me to pay out 30K then as it is like you to pay out 50-70K now.....
And don't you understand that my loan of 88+K at $460+ a month DOES NOT CHANGE EVEN WITH INFLATION ?? I will pay $460 a month from 10years ago, till today, and untill the loan is over and yet my flat is already worth more than what I agreed to paid for..... and for crying out loud.... Do you think Banks are into the business of giving you an Interest Free installment..... Get Real.... Ah Long also charge you 20% interest for 6 weeks.
And which part of - HOUSE ALREADY FULLY PAID FOR - do you NOT understand ??
and how in world did you came out with 312K ??
I buy house at $112K (which I work to pay for)
I sold house at $300K (Profit of $188K)
I now have $300K without a house.... but neither do I owe the bank/hdb/CPF anything because its already paid for after the 30year loan...
I buy new house...... $300K - $200K = $100K of cash for myself.
And NO LOAN TO REPAY.....
And that is IF I BUY A 3Room flat instead of a cheaper Studio Apartment like I said I would.....
Huh! u dun have to paid the loan that you loan out from the bank meh?? I am just give you a estimate figure as i dunno what is your loan and payement mah...wha lau take it so serious, in the end of the day, i am trying to tell you that whatever you do, you are going to loose, both to the govt, govt tax and govt/local agent fees.
I dunno how you think, but to me, go for freehold private house will have better returns. Ok let say you took a 20 years loan at 3% (min) p.a. You paid $460 for 10 years, that will be $55,200 gone, your downpayment $24,000. In total you paid $79,200 already, and you still own the bank 32,800 + 3% interest p.a, so you may need to pay $1,760 interest per year for another 10 years will be 17,600. In total you paid 32,800 + 26,400 another $59,200 for the next 10 years, if you sold your house now, you have to paid all these back to the bank. So, in all, you paid 79,000+59,200=138,200. You sold your house for $300000, minus tax and agent fees, u get let say $290000- the 138,200 u paid the bank, you get $151,800, then you go buy a 3 rooms for $200,000..are you in deficit or surplus?? and yet get a smaller house,,..needs renovation, live with bangalas and PRC..OMG!
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sori, 17600 should be 26400..and also the bank will also gain
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Originally posted by hloc:
lncase no one told you.... 40years ago TOA PAYOH & AMK is as ULU as it could be..... but you must be too little, make that, not born yet to know...... not your fault.
wat kind of statement is tat? u might as well say 150 years ago singapore was a fishing village. -
i thot 150 years ago, Singapore was a banana plantation?
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Huh! u dun have to paid the loan that you loan out from the bank meh?? I am just give you a estimate figure as i dunno what is your loan and payement mah...wha lau take it so serious, in the end of the day, i am trying to tell you that whatever you do, you are going to loose, both to the govt, govt tax and govt/local agent fees.
I dunno how you think, but to me, go for freehold private house will have better returns. Ok let say you took a 20 years loan at 3% (min) p.a. You paid $460 for 10 years, that will be $55,200 gone, your downpayment $24,000. In total you paid $79,200 already, and you still own the bank 32,800 + 3% interest p.a, so you may need to pay $1,760 interest per year for another 10 years will be 17,600. In total you paid 32,800 + 26,400 another $59,200 for the next 10 years, if you sold your house now, you have to paid all these back to the bank. So, in all, you paid 79,000+59,200=138,200. You sold your house for $300000, minus tax and agent fees, u get let say $290000- the 138,200 u paid the bank, you get $151,800, then you go buy a 3 rooms for $200,000..are you in deficit or surplus?? and yet get a smaller house,,..needs renovation, live with bangalas and PRC..OMG!
1st - like you said.... you don't know the term and condition of my loan.That is why I'm not paying too much.... reason - 1st time loan buying 1st house with parents staying with me.....
2nd - Like I said earlier.... when I 1st took up the loan, my avg pay was only $1200-$1300 only.... where got bank willing to loan big amount to someone with such low pay ?? And I nearly can't get a loan because my pay near miss the minimum sum needed for that amount. Luckily I was working for a GLC link company and that the company is unlikely to close shop.... which is why I kept saying $112K while 'CHEAP' now.... wasn't cheap then....
3rd - Like you said.... I DO NOT wish to work like a Slave inorder to pay off my loan.... Why buy a freehold private house and work like a dog when I could live like a man with a less stressful loan.... And beside, seeing num 2 - I nearly can't get a loan.... do you think the bank would loan me enough to buy a freehold private house costing into the half million zone ??
Now.... I'm not trying to offence you or anything..... but do you know that all S'porean have a RIGHT to get special low interest loan from Bank or HDB when they buy their House for the first two times ?? The reason I manage to get the low interest loan was because this was my 1st house.... and I don't plan to abuse the privilege without good cause. A few of my workmate brought their flats at low cost.... sold them away during the mid 90s housing boom.... earn as much as $70-$100K over night. But they have to buy Resale at high cost (Boom time + didn't downgrade or anything). So now..... in their mid 40s..... their loan per month is $1500-$2000+.... and all the money they made already used up for hoildays and cars.... some even use the money to go for the Haj. Their Resale flat is now worth less then they paid for in boom time..... SLAVES are made of these people..... People who didn't plan and think.....
Btw..... your attitude towards foreginer is uncalled for.... I agree that some PRC or Bangalas is hard to get used to and do cause problem.... but I find the same could be said with some of my S'porean neigbours. The funny thing is, my family gets on well with the PRC family next door.... Just live and let live i suppose....
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Originally posted by hloc:
Wao Liao..... Don't you know the I meant making sure that I would finish payment before 55 ??!! Don't you know that if you finish payment by 55, you could use the half the price of your flat as part of the CPF condition (at least 120K inside) to withdraw half of your CPF money out (the rest of your money at 62.... for now).
30K is equivalent to 50-70K... u sure or not ?? Again don't you understand that I was trying to inform you that it was a big headache for me to pay out 30K then as it is like you to pay out 50-70K now.....
And don't you understand that my loan of 88+K at $460+ a month DOES NOT CHANGE EVEN WITH INFLATION ?? I will pay $460 a month from 10years ago, till today, and untill the loan is over and yet my flat is already worth more than what I agreed to paid for..... and for crying out loud.... Do you think Banks are into the business of giving you an Interest Free installment..... Get Real.... Ah Long also charge you 20% interest for 6 weeks.
And which part of - HOUSE ALREADY FULLY PAID FOR - do you NOT understand ??
and how in world did you came out with 312K ??
I buy house at $112K (which I work to pay for)
I sold house at $300K (Profit of $188K)
I now have $300K without a house.... but neither do I owe the bank/hdb/CPF anything because its already paid for after the 30year loan...
I buy new house...... $300K - $200K = $100K of cash for myself. Even if I have to pay back CPF $32K.... that is still $68K. And did I mention that it is when I retired and is taking my CPF at age 55....... the $32K will still be given half to me....
And most importantly - NO LOAN TO REPAY.....
And that is IF I BUY A 3Room flat instead of a cheaper Studio Apartment like I said I would most likely do.....
I think you are better off not selling your flat to downgrade, since you have already paid off your debt in mortgage.
I don't know how many children you have .Your kids may start their own family and leave you with empty nest, but you will need the space when you have grandchildren.
Unless your offsprings have no intentions of living with you at all, and your spouse has passed away, then downgrading to a senior studio will be a sensible move.
However, most females outlive the males by at least 10 years.Your financial planning using your HDB does not take into consideration the long term life style plan.
Do you want to leave your wife all alone and in a one bedroom flat just so you can have more money in your pocket during your retirement ?
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In general, I think the only reasonably risk free way people would have made money on property was buying it during the 70s and 80s when a decent HDB flat cost only $10-20K. It is obvious that prices will never drop back to 70s and 80s level, hence you are assured of making money if you sell now. (whether you can buy another flat at dirt cheap prices now is another matter)
At this point in time, people are punting on $500K flats in the hopes that years down the road, the price would increase say 50%. They base it on the historic example of the flats in the 70s and 80s now being worth 20 times their original values. The trouble is now, due to the volatility and higher interdependence of the world economy now, economic growth (and hence employment growth, wage growth etc) is not as stable as before and is subject to even wilder swings.
Hence, I think that there is an almost equal likelihood of prices falling 50% in the opposite direction too if another great adverse economic or political or health event hits the global economies.
Where prices will go, only time will tell.
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Originally posted by hloc:
lncase no one told you.... 40years ago TOA PAYOH & AMK is as ULU as it could be..... but you must be too little, make that, not born yet to know...... not your fault.
Toa Payoh is built during the late 60s, AMK in the mid 70s.
Info : Beach Road/Crawford/Havelock/Alexandra also cost $4000-$7000 for a 3rm HDB during the mid 1960s.
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Originally posted by charlize:
In general, I think the only reasonably risk free way people would have made money on property was buying it during the 70s and 80s when a decent HDB flat cost only $10-20K. It is obvious that prices will never drop back to 70s and 80s level, hence you are assured of making money if you sell now. (whether you can buy another flat at dirt cheap prices now is another matter)
At this point in time, people are punting on $500K flats in the hopes that years down the road, the price would increase say 50%. They base it on the historic example of the flats in the 70s and 80s now being worth 20 times their original values. The trouble is now, due to the volatility and higher interdependence of the world economy now, economic growth (and hence employment growth, wage growth etc) is not as stable as before and is subject to even wilder swings.
Hence, I think that there is an almost equal likelihood of prices falling 50% in the opposite direction too if another great adverse economic or political or health event hits the global economies.
Where prices will go, only time will tell.
It's sad when the uninitiated can't see that HDB price levels are not supported by wage levels.
You have somebody telling you that wage levels was $500+ in the 1970s and 3 Room HDB cost $8,000.
In 2009, wage levels rose to (according to him) $1,600 to $1,800 and 3 Room HDB cost $150,000.
Wage levels rose an annual 3.72% (base year 1975 with current wage $1,800) and 3 Room HDB rose an annual 8.72%. Something else must be happening to explain the average annual increase of the extra 5% in 3 Room HDB.
And we are not concerned about how much you made during the past 10 years when he bought his flat. We are more concerned about the affordability for the current generation of people.
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Originally posted by hloc:
It seems that you guys/gals don't own a House and don't understand how its done..... let me explain.
My house brought at $112K..... will I sell just because 'Market' is good. ?? - No.
Why -
Because I don't intend to get into 'New' debt (new loan with new interest... etc)
Because that is my HOME.... NOT an Investment like Shares in the Stock Market. (you just don't Buy Sell Buy Sell for fun)
But I will sell it WHEN -
My childrens are all grown up and leaves the house (need not so much room)
When I retire and could use the extra cash along with my CPF.
Downgrade -
If my new smaller until is expensive due to inflation.... wouldn't you said that my 4Room would also worth more due to Inflation ?? Or do you think that only one side got inflation while the other won't ??
Example - If I'm to retire NOW (House already Fully paid for).... FYI, my loan will finish before I hit 55... I did my MATH before I buy
Accounting to deepak.c update on HDB price of resale 4Room flat in Woodlands area.... My flat would be worth $300K +/-..... A resale 3Room flat in Woodlands is selling on the avg of $190-205K NOW... (go to HDB Resale and click 3Rooms Woodlands from Jan to Aug 2009)
So... $300K - $200K = $100K +/-
Since I don't need any more loan.... it will be pure cash (after agent & Govt take their shares lah)
And I wouldn't even need a 3Room..... because only me and the Wife would be living there.... and since I never did believe that I would live till 80 anyway.... I will most likely apply for those very small Studio Apartment for Seniors.... You get a 30year lease for perhars $60K (I think deepak.c will update me the price soon) but Govt will take back the flat once you are dead... as you DON'T own the until.....
But who cares...... at the most will live another 20years after leasing the House only anyway.
FYI..... if younger S'porean can't afford to buy house NOW..... do anyone here think it was 'EASY' for me 10years ago ?? My House might seems 'Cheap' now when compare to the price today... but it wasn't 'CHEAP' 10years back.... Don't forget, Inflation was around 10years ago too. If deepak.c wants to said 40years ago House is only $8000.... do deepak.c knows how many people have $8000 back then ?? Yeah yeah... my $112K House is CHEAP.... do you think I would need a 30years loan if it was CHEAP then ?? Use your BRAIN lah.... When my Parents was working 40years ago... basic pay was $500+. My time - $1200+.... nowadays.... No young S'porean from poly would work for anything less than $1600-1800....
So.... how you want to compare long time ago.....
Singapore is not ONLY about you, we were talking about affordability of housing for the current generation, but you seem to be sucked into a vortex of self glorification. Gimme a break, you only made around $180,000, I made at least 3 times your amount and I don't find it glorifying at all.
You just tell us that people made $500+ a year in 1970s, a couple would have made $1,000 a month, you pay $200 a month, you would have paid $8,000 in 40 months. Think about your annual wage growth from then till now is only 3.72% while your HDB has been increasing at 8.72% a year. In the past you only need pay 5 years for your house, at present you have to pay 30 years for your house.
Ermmm.....I thought you were the one that brought up your case of buying a house 10 years ago, when everyone else was comparing about the current price level of HDB houses. You don't even have the honour to stand by what you say and push your losses to me.
Now it's me that brought up HDB prices from 10 years ago? Judging from your logic, I would say you don't have a basic degree, I think this is like speaking common sense to lionnoisy.
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Originally posted by charlize:
In general, I think the only reasonably risk free way people would have made money on property was buying it during the 70s and 80s when a decent HDB flat cost only $10-20K. It is obvious that prices will never drop back to 70s and 80s level, hence you are assured of making money if you sell now. (whether you can buy another flat at dirt cheap prices now is another matter)
At this point in time, people are punting on $500K flats in the hopes that years down the road, the price would increase say 50%. They base it on the historic example of the flats in the 70s and 80s now being worth 20 times their original values. The trouble is now, due to the volatility and higher interdependence of the world economy now, economic growth (and hence employment growth, wage growth etc) is not as stable as before and is subject to even wilder swings.
Hence, I think that there is an almost equal likelihood of prices falling 50% in the opposite direction too if another great adverse economic or political or health event hits the global economies.
Where prices will go, only time will tell.
Back in 70s and 80s, Singapore was going through rapid urban development. Where there used to be villages with mud paths, were now replaced with spanking new flats and other concrete stuctures ( aka developments).
Prices back then shot up because of new developments around the vicinity. Owning a leased HDB was a status symbol.
Today, how much more can the land be developed ? How many more shopping malls or MRT stations can we build from land already developed ?
Times has changed, can the uptrend be sustained for the next few generations ? And what is the basis of this growth ?
Will my offsprings need to pay 1million for a 2 bedroom unit ? Will they be able to earn enough to pay their mortgage and live a reasonably good life ? Or will they become slaves to HDB mortgage , just to have a roof over their heads ?
Where is all this leading to ?
If what you forsee prices to drop instead of going up, then current pricing for new or resale flat is unrealistic.
Will our million lollar ministers be able to answer this ?
Scary thoughts.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Back in 70s and 80s, Singapore is going through rapid urban development. Where there used to be villages with mud paths, are now replaced with spanking new flats and other concrete stuctures ( aka developments).
Prices back then shoot up because of new developments around the vicinity. Owning a leased HDB was a status symbol.
Today, how much more can the land be developed ? How many more shopping malls or MRT stations can we build from land already developed ?
Times has changed, can the uptrend be sustained for the next few generations ? And what is the basis of this growth ?
Will my offsprings need to pay 1million for a 2 bedroom unit ? Will they be able to earn enough to pay their mortgage and live a reasonably good life ? Or will they become slaves to HDB mortgage , just to have a roof over their heads ?
Where is all this leading to ?
Will our million lollar ministers be able to answer this ?
Scary thoughts.
I sometime often wonder why Singaporean fascination over HDB? we know it is more of a necessity for a place to live in not particularly for anything fancy. But Sometime Singaporean flipped the flats like commodity simply beyond rationale.
i wonder eventual property tax would be imposed?
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
I sometime often wonder why Singaporean fascination over HDB? we know it is more of a necessity for a place to live in not particularly for anything fancy. But Sometime Singaporean flipped the flats like commodity simply beyond rationale.
i wonder eventual property tax would be imposed?
Back then when the gahmen implemented the program to shoo villagers out from landed dwellings, the leased flats were not meant to be investments and traded as such.
Property taxes will only encourage HDB valuations to go UP.
I think it would be more prudent to issue lease flats for a fraction of the price to new families and offer them 10, 15, 20 or 30 year leasehold rights. And then when the lease is up, extend or return flats for another type of floor plan with similar lease structure. This should effectively curb resale speculations.
That way, new families don't have to worry about the pitfalls of short term renting, still enjoy affordable long term public housing, better flexibility for family expansion/contraction and save up money for their children's expenses for a better family life.
HDB really needs to restructure the policies if not the newer generations will suffer.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
I sometime often wonder why Singaporean fascination over HDB? we know it is more of a necessity for a place to live in not particularly for anything fancy. But Sometime Singaporean flipped the flats like commodity simply beyond rationale.
i wonder eventual property tax would be imposed?
Many regard the rationale that Singapore is a small strategic island and it's worth more later on in time regardless.
But at this age when others are progressing faster and by pass possible for shipping through Arctic summer, are we still that strategic?
So churning up the numbers of the occupants through import of foreigners to raise the property values. But how much more can this go on before the national fabric is shredded?
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Many regard the rationale that Singapore is a small strategic island and it's worth more later on in time regardless.
But at this age when others are progressing faster and by pass possible for shipping through Arctic summer, are we still that strategic?
So churning up the numbers of the occupants through import of foreigners to raise the property values. But how much more can this go on before the national fabric is shredded?
Singapore is pricing herself out of the global market.
Many expats are complaining about the high cost of housing in Singapore. And in order for them to live a comparable standard of living, their company needs to pay a higher price for cost of living adjustments.
Soon, little tropical island will no longer be so sunny anymore.
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i can't possibiliy seeing paying lease hold HDB flat for the price above 300K. I think a typical salary income earner take up a 150K - 200K for 25 yrs loan payment with 5 n quarter % interest. would pay until the owner closed to retired....Not to mention that loan from CPF interest need repayment after HDB is sold. And not to mention you need to allocate funds for retirement. Not to mention other saving needed for family.
As for the rationale a strategic island --- i am not sure how that translate to anything. Last 15 years has shown that Singapore are equally subjected to recession and down turn...career don't necessary stay with Income.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Singapore is pricing herself out of the global market.
Many expats are complaining about the high cost of housing in Singapore. And in order for them to live a comparable standard of living, their company needs to pay a higher price for cost of living adjustments.
Soon, little tropical island will no longer be so sunny anymore.
Without further property price increases, how to justify the increase of the value of Singapore and the ministers and all.
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Without further property price increases, how to justify the increase of the value of Singapore and the ministers and all.
the point of using a necessity elements and profiteer from it is shooting yourself in the long run. Especially in Singapore where only resource is Human Capital....If people are not rooted on solid ground and people move out....
Here in LA i met a Singaporean property agent selling property to singaporean...buying up houses in multiple units.....
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
i can't possibiliy seeing paying lease hold HDB flat for the price above 300K. I think a typical salary income earner take up a 150K - 200K for 25 yrs loan payment with 5 n quarter % interest. would pay until the owner closed to retired....Not to mention that loan from CPF interest need repayment after HDB is sold. And not to mention you need to allocate funds for retirement. Not to mention other saving needed for family.
As for the rationale a strategic island --- i am not sure how that translate to anything. Last 15 years has shown that Singapore are equally subjected to recession and down turn...career don't necessary stay with Income.
Sometimes we are kept reminded how strategic we are in history but things change. Nothing remain the same, but the irony for many is to cling on their "heritage history" and ignore the stark fact of present reality. Once the myth is broken, many will fall in a economic furnace.
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Sometimes we are kept reminded how strategic we are in history but things change. Nothing remain the same, but the irony for many is to cling on their "heritage history" and ignore the stark fact of present reality. Once the myth is broken, many will fall in a economic furnace.
hv u seen the latest ad from Health Promotion on mental health? -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
hv u seen the latest ad from Health Promotion on mental health?Nope, but is it the furnace door about to open?
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Nope, but is it the furnace door about to open?
It goes like that. The person said that times are bad and only have enough to buy peanut, the other said that buy peanut better than nothing.Propaganda crap. There is underlying meaning to it.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
It goes like that. The person said that times are bad and only have enough to buy peanut, the other said that buy peanut better than nothing.Propaganda crap. There is underlying meaning to it.
What if you are allergic to peanut,
if rich, the hospital is waiting,
if poor the morgue is waiting,
issit?