What will life be like if CPF is never implemented?
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Without CPF more people would be living in Private Housing instead of HDB.
In Hong Kong, 52% lives in Private Housing. In Singapore, at least 80% lives in Public Housing.
CPF 3.5% interest rate puts a restriction on the growth of income of private investors while increasing that of the government. It's little wonder that the government gets richer while the citizens get poorer.
I don't deny that CPF is a good scheme, but it's exploited by the government as a cheap source of funds. The funds are circumvented from MAS to Temasek so that they can make above 15% returns a year, but CPF members are only given 3.5% for the $60,000 cap. At the end of the day, to whom does Temasek and GIC belong to? The government or the citizens?
http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/en/aboutus/resources/graphicguides/0,,1-1727-2755,00.html
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Originally posted by Shao Wei:
to be fair. HDB pricing is riduculous, well thats why they came out with a brillant schme to suck your money at 1 time, and let u pay for this HDB u are in.
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Not if you could sell it off at a profit later...... only those buying resale because they have already used up their 2 chance to get HDB will be worst off (but who tell them to buy sell buy sell to get cash).
Not forgetting that by living near/with your parents.... you will likely get $40K rebate. When you live on a small island with very limited land or City area of big countries..... Housing could never be cheap (Hong Kong, Tokoy, KL, Mumbai.... etc)
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Originally posted by hloc:Originally posted by Shao Wei:
to be fair. HDB pricing is riduculous, well thats why they came out with a brillant schme to suck your money at 1 time, and let u pay for this HDB u are in.
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Not if you could sell it off at a profit later...... only those buying resale because they have already used up their 2 chance to get HDB will be worst off (but who tell them to buy sell buy sell to get cash).
Not forgetting that by living near/with your parents.... you will likely get $40K rebate. When you live on a small island with very limited land or City area of big countries..... Housing could never be cheap (Hong Kong, Tokoy, KL, Mumbai.... etc)
Hong Kong has less land for development than Singapore. Seriously, you should be more knowledgeable than this.
Hong Kong is interjected by mountainous terrain, unlike Singapore which is a more or less flat piece of land.
Singapore you claim is a small piece of land. I ask you why in the hell did the PAP government want to increase population size to 6 million? To further prop up the property prices? More demand equates to higher price levels?
Housing is never cheap because it's been controlled by a monopoly. Seriously, with Singapore's income level, the price of housing is just ludicrous.
Places like Australia where average wage of Macdonald's staff is like A$8 per hour compared to Singapore's Macdonalds SG$3.50 per hour. HDB 2 bedrooms are priced like $150,000 to $200,000. Isn't this a bit far fetched?
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
Without CPF more people would be living in private housing instead of HDB.
In Hong Kong, 52% lives in Private Housing. In Singapore, at least 80% lives in Public Housing.
CPF 3.5% interest rate puts a restriction on the growth of income of private investors while increasing that of the government. It's little wonder that the government gets richer while the citizens get poorer.
http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/en/aboutus/resources/graphicguides/0,,1-1727-2755,00.html
Err..... you do know that there are very limited Public Housing in HK right ?? And that the wait is very long and the public housing is very small in size (some don't even have in-house toilet)......
So, 52% of HK-er living in Private Housing, won't you said is because they have limited choice ?? And by the way.... even Private Housing in HK has small floor space and is also very $$$$. But YES..... if the market is good.... can make tons of $$$$ when selling off
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
Hong Kong has less land for development than Singapore. Seriously, you should be more knowledgeable than this.
Hong Kong is interjected by mountainous terrain, unlike Singapore which is a more or less flat piece of land.
Singapore you claim is a small piece of land. I ask you why in the hell did the PAP government want to increase population size to 6 million? To further prop up the property prices? More demand equates to higher price levels?
It would be good if PAP could Prop UP Property price as you said..... then my 4Room flat would be worth more than I paid for
And while HK island itself is smaller than S'pore..... Kowloon itself (where most of the people lives) isn't.....
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Originally posted by hloc:
Err..... you do know that there are very limited Public Housing in HK right ?? And that the wait is very long and the public housing is very small in size (some don't even have in-house toilet)......
So, 52% of HK-er living in Private Housing, won't you said is because they have limited choice ?? And by the way.... even Private Housing in HK has small floor space and is also very $$$$. But YES..... if the market is good.... can make tons of $$$$ when selling off
Let's face it, the form of government in Hong Kong produces more rich folks compared to Singapore, therefore there is less need for Public Housing.
How many billionaires are there in Hong Kong compared to Singapore?
Why is it that Hong Kong produces more billionaires than Singapore? It's probably because the Hong Kong government has a hands off policy regarding private enterprises, unlike Singapore which has a foot in all the monopolies. It's not a bad thing if the government monopolies uses it's market power to charge a cheaper price for consumers, but in Singapore the government is all out to make a high profit from her monopolies.
I can't deny that Hong Kong housing is expensive, but then again, how much does a Hong Konger make compare to Singaporeans. I had a Hong Konger relative who migrated here before the 1997 takeover, he still continued his business in Hong Kong. After afew years, he moved his family backed to Hong Kong, he said it's easier to make a living in Hong Kong than in Singapore.
With Singapore government they will be constantly driving down the wages of ordinary citizens by importing cheap PRC, Indian and Bangla workers to saturate the market.
Please cite your sources.
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Originally posted by hloc:
It would be good if PAP could Prop UP Property price as you said..... then my 4Room flat would be worth more than I paid for
And while HK island itself is smaller than S'pore..... Kowloon itself (where most of the people lives) isn't.....
So what if your property going to increase to 2-3 times?
You sell it, you will be homeless.
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
So what if your property going to increase to 2-3 times?
You sell it, you will be homeless.
Thats why you downgrade..... 4Room to 3Room or smaller.
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
Lehman brother was more of the banks' hardselling and withholding certain information from investors. That's why investors in Hong Kong got their money back and you can't use a single event to generalise about the whole market, like I said before you need a diversified portfolio to reduce the risk, not putting your eggs into one basket. In any case, whether the market is good or bad, there will always be companies losing money and filing for bankruptcy, it's just that when there market dips, there are more companies closing, but then those who survive will take over the bankrupted company's share. Diversification would need about 30 different company stocks.
Also, don't forget that CPF (government) has the funds necessary to diversify into many investments, with diversification the risk are reduced, they are able to get a higher return from the investments. But what they do is to pocket the difference between your 3.5% and their investment gains, they are just merely exploiting CPF members' cheap source of funds.
I think you are totally unknowledgable about CPF, don't you know that there was a cap of $60,000 before you can even make an investment, it was mentioned in a previous National Day Rally. Where are you from?
Actually you ask any Hong Kongers if they would wish for a social security scheme, or the risk and returns on investment like stock and shares. They will tell you the only sure way of making money in HK is property, the rich getting richer, the poor poorer.
If you don't even have a min of $60,000, how to talk about a diversified stock porfolio. You need the money for your old age, that is the basic purpose of CPF.
Not everybody is able to gain higher returns than the 3.5% return on your CPF money. and again, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The CPF board use the money pooled to diversify and gain higher returns, they then pay the 3.5%, it is just like the banks and financial institutions, just that the criteria may be different the ways they are run.
People who use CPF money to buy house mostly make money, those who buy stock and shares lose money. Whether it is CPF or your own cash, it is prudent to keep a min 棺�本。
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Actually you ask any Hong Kongers if they would wish for a social security scheme, or the risk and returns on investment like stock and shares. They will tell you the only sure way of making money in HK is property, the rich getting richer, the poor poorer.
If you don't even have a min of $60,000, how to talk about a diversified stock porfolio. You need the money for your old age, that is the basic purpose of CPF.
Not everybody is able to gain higher returns than the 3.5% return on your CPF money. and again, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The CPF board use the money pooled to diversify and gain higher returns, they then pay the 3.5%, it is just like the banks and financial institutions, just that the criteria may be different the ways they are run.
People who use CPF money to buy house mostly make money, those who buy stock and shares lose money. Whether it is CPF or your own cash, it is prudent to keep a min 棺�本。
Obviously you have never heard of mutual funds in your decades of intellectual existence?
Diversification can simply be done by government, because they have a collection of CPF member's funds, it's at least $150 billions, that is more than enough for diversification in many markets. But ask yourself, why is the government not doing this service for CPF members, instead it chose to pay a flat rate of 3.5% while profiteering from the excess 7%? Maybe it's because the government is structured more like a business rather like those of Hong Kong which is more of an administrative function.
I agree that a small minority may not have the financial intelligence to reap 3.5% on their own without any financial advice, that is where the government comes in by giving financial advice to these inexperienced investors, believe 3.5% is not alot of returns by any comparisons, it is not even able to make up for the cost of inflation. I believe that the majority of mutual funds has a return higher 3.5%.
Are you sure folks who use CPF money to buy house mostly make money given the current economic climate?
Why has housing prices increase in these few years? It's not a result of internal growth, but rather a result of government's policy to increase the population to 6 million, more population means more competition for resources like housing, that's why housing has skyrocketed these current few years. Is such a growth sustainable in the long run? I guess not, like any system exponential growth will be followed by a decline.
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without CPF, our income tax may go at 30%+ like some other countries... woot
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Originally posted by ^CuteVenic3^:
without CPF, our income tax may go at 30%+ like some other countries... woot
Har?
Are you saying CPF is a form of tax now?
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Without CPF People will have more money to spend and invest and as a consequence Singapore's GDP will increase by much
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Worldwide, CPF and similar schemes are designed to provide a lumpsum plus steady stream of income post-retirement, or a lumpsum when you quit/lose your job. Only in Singapore is it used so widely for housing and medicare. Everywhere else, CPF funds are generally left untouched by the members. To buy a house, you borrow from a bank, and to pay for medicare you take out medical insurance (unless the state provides free healthcare).
It's become a vicious circle. Govt needs more CPF funds, so more people are given PR, leading to more demand for housing, more CPF funds are diverted to HDB mortgages, govt needs more money....
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Originally posted by seyKai:
some countries tax the rich n give to the poor and look after you wen u aged
the credit you sign n the hosung loan u take is MONEY YOU OWE and NOT YOUR MONEY
i dun agree,the money they tax goes to people that are lazy and dun wan to work too.Housing loan is someting everyone need to take up unless u are super rich to afford a 3 bedroom flat with 300k cash in hand. however, allowing citizens to ease their burden, the money we are so call forced to save every month comes handy to help us pay off the intitial fee.
Imagine if there is no forced saving by the government, do u think people will save up their 20% of the pay for the housing loan...i seriously doubt so.nevertheless, i am still very worried on the on rising housing loan.this can be a serious social problem as we have a very good example from US.alot of people unable to pay off the loan and declare bankrupt.
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Originally posted by citymax:
i dun agree,the money they tax goes to people that are lazy and dun wan to work too.Housing loan is someting everyone need to take up unless u are super rich to afford a 3 bedroom flat with 300k cash in hand. however, allowing citizens to ease their burden, the money we are so call forced to save every month comes handy to help us pay off the intitial fee.
Imagine if there is no forced saving by the government, do u think people will save up their 20% of the pay for the housing loan...i seriously doubt so.nevertheless, i am still very worried on the on rising housing loan.this can be a serious social problem as we have a very good example from US.alot of people unable to pay off the loan and declare bankrupt.
you mean if they didnt force you to save, you cannot afford to buy a house for yourself?
" alot of people unable to pay off the loan and declare bankrupt"
you mean no ppl here are bankrupted due to the HDB loan?
you still get to keep the flat wen you dun pay?
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Originally posted by seyKai:
you mean if they didnt force you to save, you cannot afford to buy a house for yourself?
" alot of people unable to pay off the loan and declare bankrupt"
you mean no ppl here are bankrupted due to the HDB loan?
you still get to keep the flat wen you dun pay?
1) ask the question urself,if u dun haf the cpf, can u afford to buy a house.
2) The second senario is a fact that in US, obviously if you dont pay for something, do you still can keep it.either house or car...
The CPF here is to assist us and that is my own opinion,coz i dun haf so much cash to pay for the downpayment.
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Contrary to the above,
if you hate and dun like CPF, you can alway dun have to contribute, work as contract or daily pay jobs, or open shop and do business..just contribute abit to gain the rebate and sustain the Medisave will do. Therefore CPF contribution is not a laws, you can omit it.
But by working as a wage earners without contribution, the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank
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Originally posted by angel7030:
Contrary to the above,
if you hate and dun like CPF, you can alway dun have to contribute, work as contract or daily pay jobs, or open shop and do business..just contribute abit to gain the rebate and sustain the Medisave will do. Therefore CPF contribution is not a laws, you can omit it.
But by working as a wage earners without contribution, the employers will be laughing all the way to the bank
tell that Seykai
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moral of the story
Don't treat CPF as your money when planning your financial goals
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
Without CPF more people would be living in Private Housing instead of HDB.
In Hong Kong, 52% lives in Private Housing. In Singapore, at least 80% lives in Public Housing.
CPF 3.5% interest rate puts a restriction on the growth of income of private investors while increasing that of the government. It's little wonder that the government gets richer while the citizens get poorer.
I don't deny that CPF is a good scheme, but it's exploited by the government as a cheap source of funds. The funds are circumvented from MAS to Temasek so that they can make above 15% returns a year, but CPF members are only given 3.5% for the $60,000 cap. At the end of the day, to whom does Temasek and GIC belong to? The government or the citizens?
http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/en/aboutus/resources/graphicguides/0,,1-1727-2755,00.html
Not sure when is your source but as far as I know, over 50% of the HK population live in public housing. The more important thing is the ownership, most HK rent the government housing while most singaporean own the housing.
Singapore and HK have similar population density of around 6400 psm. while Hk is interjected with mountains, singapore need to preserve the water reservoir, water catchment area, military training area, and small farms. Average Singapore flats are around 24 storeys while in HK it is 40 storeys. check with the HK people and you will find out the comparison of the sizes of the flats between the countries. I expect you to be more knowledgeable on this.
The major land owner in Singapore is the government, in HK it is the Lee family and others. Tong Chee Hwa wanted to build public housing similar to the HDB for HK but the main objections came from the private developers. "government should not have any influence on property market". Hk has more billionnaires than Singapore, no doubt, but how do they become billionnaires? property development! it is still the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. the difference is who are the rich and who are the poor. You can't be the government of HK, but do you think you can be the developers in HK?
since when has the market for private housing, besides the landed in singapore sustained by internal growth? prices have gone exponentially high before the financial meltdown in the US, then prices came down by more than 40%. now you see prices going up, will it sustain? ever heard of the 12 years cycle?
if you get better returns from private housing, why should the 3.5% be a limit to your investment in private housing. Why do you want to leave in money in your CPF and be exploited by the government. go join the q for private condos, I have one for sales, when the price is high enough.
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Originally posted by citymax:
1) ask the question urself,if u dun haf the cpf, can u afford to buy a house.
2) The second senario is a fact that in US, obviously if you dont pay for something, do you still can keep it.either house or car...
The CPF here is to assist us and that is my own opinion,coz i dun haf so much cash to pay for the downpayment.
i dun need the CPF to buy me a house and why should I let other control my money
is employer/employee CPF contribution not a law? then askl you boss not to contribute then report him
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Originally posted by eagle:
moral of the story
Don't treat CPF as your money when planning your financial goals
ya, treat it as when all investment failed, you still got a roof on top of you -
Originally posted by seyKai:
i dun need the CPF to buy me a house and why should I let other control my money
is employer/employee CPF contribution not a law? then askl you boss not to contribute then report him
there are daily contract and casual workers and professionals not contributing CPF at all, you are the boss of yourself, engage by people who contracted you to do the job, negotiated the amount and that is it...if you go geyland or even woodland centre in the morning, you can pick workers both sg and malaysians, just tell them the day salary and up the lorry they go and work, with no medical, no insurance, no leaves, no CPF, nothing, and at the end of the day, you get your pay. -
actually many ppl bo CPF de
but tis group of ppl very cash rich lor