Singapore Pledge is only an aspiration
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Originally posted by oic:
why should i sacrifice my life defending this country if the pledge which i took as a NS man is only an aspiration! And a few priviledged ppl are more equal than me.
Bingo!That is why I am not into reciting the pledge
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Originally posted by charlize:
They now say the pledge is not accurate leh.
So how?
What i see is not important. More important is what I had pledged, along with my fellow millions of citizens.It is an oath we will uphold, with blood and even the cost of our lives, for an aspiration, not only just for our own sake, but for future generations, just as our forefathers had done and strive so very hard for.
If not for our sacred pledge, there is no reason, no common goal for a better future, for us or even me to stay and contribute to this society and nation, which is made of our families, relatives and friends.
An aspiration only, but a noble one that will uplift all our lives for a better future, if we each honour our words, which rightfully is our bond, or there is no longer anything to trust us for.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
What i see is not important. More important is what I had pledged, along with my fellow millions of citizens.It is an oath we will uphold, with blood and even the cost of our lives, for an aspiration, not only just for our own sake, but for future generations, just as our forefathers had done and strive so very hard for.
If not for our sacred pledge, there is no reason, no common goal for a better future, for us or even me to stay and contribute to this society and nation, which is made of our families, relatives and friends.
An aspiration only, but a noble one that will uplift all our lives for a better future, if we each honour our words, which rightfully is our bond, or there is no longer anything to trust us for.
Are you living in a Shakespearean play?
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Originally posted by charlize:
Are you living in a Shakespearean play?
No, even though life is only a stage as the bard had envisoned.If you had walked in my shoes and seen what i had seen, you will know reality, with the ability to comprehend cold harsh realities from pure idealism in our human world.
Lift your eyes towards Ex-Russia Soviet Union, equipped with an equally noble aim called communism and what did you see?
LIft your eyes towards tribal Africa, equipped with tribal laws, and what do you see?
Lift your eyes towards USA, the beacon of democracy, and what you see, but a political and social destiny yet to be fulfilled even after 100+ years?
Open your eyes that you may not be blind, what do you see other than a non-existant mortal perfection in your mind?
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Oh... why dun he say that it was a lie all along?
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Originally posted by caleb_chiang:
Oh... why dun he say that it was a lie all along?
May not be a lie. Guess it is what it is to serve purpose of a group of selfish, oppressive elites in Singapore. -
Is LKY getting senile?
I like the part where he said that the pledge is just an aspiration, not a principle.
So are the ideas of justice and equality mere aspirations, not principles which we base our values on?
It's like we dream of democracy, justice and equality, but too bad we are not there as yet.
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there have been talk that he has been senile since long
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Originally posted by deepak.c:
It's like we dream of democracy, justice and equality, but too bad we are not there as yet.
Glad you realize this fact. We are certainly not there yet, till you and me understand what democracy, what it entails and act responsibly.But be disheartened not. We, or if not us, the comming generations will get there, as long as our aspirations are maintained and honoured, and then it will become a principle upon which future generations can be protected with.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
No, even though life is only a stage as the bard had envisoned.If you had walked in my shoes and seen what i had seen, you will know reality, with the ability to comprehend cold harsh realities from pure idealism in our human world.
Lift your eyes towards Ex-Russia Soviet Union, equipped with an equally noble aim called communism and what did you see?
LIft your eyes towards tribal Africa, equipped with tribal laws, and what do you see?
Lift your eyes towards USA, the beacon of democracy, and what you see, but a political and social destiny yet to be fulfilled even after 100+ years?
Open your eyes that you may not be blind, what do you see other than a non-existant mortal perfection in your mind?
Are you living in a Shakespearean play?
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Originally posted by charlize:
Are you living in a Shakespearean play?
Wish I was, but reality is no play play, as your favourite Phua Chua Kang would say. Rather than to question the unimportant me, what not share with all how you feel about the pledge, if you can ever get above cynicsim and sarcasm to act cool as you always do, to hide an inferiority complex, if I may presumptously add?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wish I was, but reality is no play play, as your favourite Phua Chua Kang would say. Rather than to question the unimportant me, what not share with all how you feel about the pledge, if you can ever get above cynicsim and sarcasm to act cool as you always do, to hide an inferiority complex, if I may presumptously add?Woohoo.
Resorting to personal attacks now.
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Cool down, it is just a pledge.
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Originally posted by charlize:
Woohoo.
Resorting to personal attacks now.
LOL! that's called a personal attack? you havent seen me at my best yet, but no, rest assured, I will personally defend yourr freedom of expression, as guaranteed in my rather kind and civilised invitation to present your side of view, which you instinctively and naturally as usual in your way,negatively potrayed as an 'attack'.
You too, fortunately or unfortunately, one of us, singaporean, by birthright, a burden we all must bear.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
LOL! that's called a personal attack? you havent seen me at my best yet, but no, rest assured, I will personally defend yourr freedom of expression, as guaranteed in my rather kind and civilised invitation to present your side of view, which you instinctively and naturally as usual in your way,negatively potrayed as an 'attack'.
You too, fortunately or unfortunately, one of us, singaporean, by birthright, a burden we all must bear.
Steady lah.
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Originally posted by sir_peanuts:
the message MM sent across by speaking in parliament is clear:
that's the end of the discussion. case closed.
my first thought exactly this is a classical case of his continue present in the parliment discourage any debates....How would one start arguing with the old man when he is not supposed to "Interfered" -
At the end of the 100 years when Singapore historian look back objectively ......they will revised the history and site the founding father of Singapore is Mr S. Rajaratnam. While LKY is an instruments of that process.
Because history will judge base on what consistantly characterized its people and society and what transformed the people in the region. And it is the idea that Remain not the wealth.
It is a fallacy to assume that legacy is something we choose and protect...and i think that is what LKY sort for at this time. Perharps it is a reflection from him as an aspiration during his political career....but for the generation that said the pledge every morning in School. That Generation grew up and now, as an adult are asking for it to be reality. I don't think NMP asked an unreasonable question.
For those who are still in school I asked that you continue to make that pledge and be asipired by it. For 2 very simple reason......It is an idea that transcend race and reglion and it addresses coexist. 2nd Because the effort will need to be seamless continuation thru generation.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
An aspiration, a noble one, but still only an aspiration nonetheless.
An aspiration only till each and everyone of us, from young to old, understand fully what 'democracy' and 'equality' means, and espacially its RESPONSIBILITIES, our pledge will only be the guiding light and path we must aim towards.
Pragmatism still rules, espacially in grey and muddled waters. To claim achievement of democracy without resolving or understanding our responsibilities to each other, to our society, is to be delusional and need to be brought back to practical Earth ground.
But the Utopian dream still lives on and see fruitation one day, as we make our oath to our society each day and attempt to live it, flawed humans that we are.
Do you know the difference between "ASPIRATION" and a "PLEDGE" ?
Can "Aspirations" be as solemn as a "Pledge" ?
Does an entire Nation swear to uphold an "Aspiration" consisting ideals, or does a Nation swear to a "Pledge" consisting of ideals ?
Originally posted by xtreyier:JUSTICE is a no-brainer in any civilise society. It is for all - rich or poor- where justice is blind. In cases where the poor have no money to fight a case, in Singapore, the courts still give him access to society paid legal counsel.
Having said that, I must admit that I do not have much faith on humanity's, let alone Singapore's mortal justice. It follows in the neutral tradition of King Solomon, whereby none gets what they really want. A baby to be split in 2 to be awarded to the disputing parties. Even if the child truly belongs to me, i would rather my baby gets to live and be awarded to another party.
It may be an extreme example, but only a realistic example of how none gets what they really want under human law, having lived long enough to realise this fact. There may be gains, but what had you actually lost when the total overall costs(not just money) are counted?
I will follow the rule of law and its legal engagements with others in my society, but where disputes begin, I would rather to resolve it out of court where criminality does not exist, and find a settlement, where possible. The courts will always be a last resort.
This is pragmatism, and a down to Earth approach, when we as a society has not yet reach Utopian status.
But there is still one justice that many put more faith in, and that is divine justice. None escapes it, no matter what religion or philosophy one belongs to. No one.
Should anyone be surprised at your callous attitude to believe that "JUSTICE is a no-brainer in any civilise society" ?
With the no-brainer part claimed by you, it is not surprising that even as you believe that Justice is available "for all - rich or poor- where justice is blind" - yet you " do not have much faith on humanity's, let alone Singapore's mortal justice."
Is the paradox due to the reality in Singapore Politicizing of the ways that Justice is being dispensed according to the whims of the Political Masters ?
Or have you relised that Singapore Justice is not exactly available to all - rich or poor - as you have resolutely claimed ?
Can Public Legal Aid be available without cost to the Poor, who is intent on taking Private Proceedings to correct any injustice that should fall on the Poor ?
Is justice available to those who have been falsely accused or charged by the PAP Government intent on preserving their own political dominance ?
Is there any justice or equality in the dispensation of justice when the well connected are given a slap on their wrist, while the poor are thrown into prison ?
Can there be any Divine Justice to those who are die-hard Aetheist or Agnostics ?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
It is only when we attempt to live up to our aspirations will then jobs be created within our society.
Those who dares not risk will aspire for a job responsibly and those who dares take on risk will create jobs for others.
Without that sacred pledge, honouring it, we will not be reminded of our responsiblities to each other, poor or rich, young or old, in good health or bad.
Civilisation started only on ideals for a better tomorrow, to uplift societies from the laws of the jungles, which unfortunately, some still operates within, as such, because of them, the pledge would be dangerous in the hands of such twisted minds.
You can be eloquent in your statement about living up to one's aspiration, and the sum total effect in the spin off in the fulfillment of each individual's aspiration.
How does such material aspiration transcend into the solemness expressed in the ideals that form the sacred Singapore Pledge ?
Are the material aspirations the building foundation of the Sacred Singapore Pledge, or should it not be the expressed ideals in the Pledge that form the foundation from which aspirations are achieved ?
If Civilization began on ideals for a better tomorrow, and the Pledge is a reminder for members of the Civilization to renew one's common sacred pledge to each other - can the Pledge be dangerous to those who take the Pledge as a Sacred Oath ?
From the current debate that has opened our eyes, we can believe in your statement that the Pledge can be dangerous in the hands of twisted minds - as can be seen in the fact that the Contents of the Pledge so solemnly taken, is now considered to be not even National Ideals or Principles to be achieved, but are mere aspirations.
It will seem now that all through the years, The Pledge has been used as a tool to psychologically conditioned Singaporeans into a malleable group of common minded people, that allow evil hands to lull them to sleep so that the evil hands can continue to operate in their non-accountable and non-transparent ways.
Originally posted by xtreyier:
What i see is not important. More important is what I had pledged, along with my fellow millions of citizens.It is an oath we will uphold, with blood and even the cost of our lives, for an aspiration, not only just for our own sake, but for future generations, just as our forefathers had done and strive so very hard for.
If not for our sacred pledge, there is no reason, no common goal for a better future, for us or even me to stay and contribute to this society and nation, which is made of our families, relatives and friends.
An aspiration only, but a noble one that will uplift all our lives for a better future, if we each honour our words, which rightfully is our bond, or there is no longer anything to trust us for.
One will certainly uphold a Solemn Oath with blood and even the cost of our lives.
Does one give up one's lives for an aspiration ?
Or does one not modify or moderate one's aspiration according to the reality ?
Even MM LKY had stated that "Equality" is to be aspired and to be achieved not today but sometime in the longer future - which is a moderation in time without urgency.
What is your understanding between “an Aspiration(*1)” and “an Ideal(*2)” ?
Are you on the same wavelenght as the late S. Rajaratnam who crafted the Pledge to build a Singapore based on ideals that make Singapore unique and different from any other ?
History
The National Pledge was written in the mid-1960s in the aftermath of the racial riots that had affected communal harmony in Malaysia and Singapore.Rajaratnam believed that race, language and religion were the main factors contributing to the division of the people.
In wording the Pledge he sought to bring across the message that these differences can be overcome if Singaporeans were committed to and caring enough for their country. The dream for Singapore is spelt out in the ideals of the Pledge.
It calls for a sense of nationhood to be fostered despite differences, and encourages all to bring reality to the dream of building a country which all Singaporeans could be proud of.
Rajaratnam remembered taking only a day or two to pen the words although it was refined further by Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew before submissions to the Cabinet. Some sources suggest Ong Pang Boon had a hand in the writing of the Pledge, but generally, Rajaratnam is credited for its entirety.
Originally posted by xtreyier:
No, even though life is only a stage as the bard had envisoned.If you had walked in my shoes and seen what i had seen, you will know reality, with the ability to comprehend cold harsh realities from pure idealism in our human world.
Lift your eyes towards Ex-Russia Soviet Union, equipped with an equally noble aim called communism and what did you see?
LIft your eyes towards tribal Africa, equipped with tribal laws, and what do you see?
Lift your eyes towards USA, the beacon of democracy, and what you see, but a political and social destiny yet to be fulfilled even after 100+ years?
Open your eyes that you may not be blind, what do you see other than a non-existant mortal perfection in your mind?
If "IDEALISM" is what build Civilization - why will you so quickly abandon idealism when faced with reality ?
Where is the steel in your Pledge to defend and give up your blood and even your life in defense of the Solemn Pledge ?
Are you a mere actor from NATO ?
In the face of all the set backs faced by other Nations bigger than ourselves, should we not be even more inspired that a Little Red Dot is in an even better position to achieve what others could not ?
Have we not ALWAYS pride ourselves over this fact ?
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
At the end of the 100 years when Singapore historian look back objectively ......they will revised the history and site the founding father of Singapore is Mr S. Rajaratnam. While LKY is an instruments of that process.
Because history will judge base on what consistantly characterized its people and society and what transformed the people in the region. And it is the idea that Remain not the wealth.
It is a fallacy to assume that legacy is something we choose and protect...and i think that is what LKY sort for at this time. Perharps it is a reflection from him as an aspiration during his political career....but for the generation that said the pledge every morning in School. That Generation grew up and now, as an adult are asking for it to be reality. I don't think NMP asked an unreasonable question.
For those who are still in school I asked that you continue to make that pledge and be asipired by it. For 2 very simple reason......It is an idea that transcend race and reglion and it addresses coexist. 2nd Because the effort will need to be seamless continuation thru generation.
VERY WELL SAID
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Do you know the difference between "ASPIRATION" and a "PLEDGE" ?
Can "Aspirations" be as solemn as a "Pledge" ?
Does an entire Nation swear to uphold an "Aspiration" consisting ideals, or does a Nation swear to a "Pledge" consisting of ideals ?
Should anyone be surprised at your callous attitude to believe that "JUSTICE is a no-brainer in any civilise society" ?
With the no-brainer part claimed by you, it is not surprising that even as you believe that Justice is available "for all - rich or poor- where justice is blind" - yet you " do not have much faith on humanity's, let alone Singapore's mortal justice."
Is the paradox due to the reality in Singapore Politicizing of the ways that Justice is being dispensed according to the whims of the Political Masters ?
Is Singapore Justice available to all - rich or poor - as you have resolutely claimed - when the Public Legal Aid is not available to the Poor intent on Private Proceedings to correct any injustice that should fall on the Poor ?
Can there be any Divine Justice to those who are die-hard Aetheist or Agnostics ?
....... : )
He only aspired to defend Singapore.....Not Pledge to Defend Singapore....ha ha ha
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Originally posted by Atobe:
VERY WELL SAID
well coming from you is an honor....thanks.
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Atobe, enjoy your word play and twisting of other's view, as you usually do, and will continue to do. I suppose you must find comfort and solace in doing it. It is your belief system and that which keep you alive.
And I have no wish to destroy that which keeps you alive.
Enjoy yourself, but do be aware that the rest of us are more earth-bound, with realities to face, for there are still people, even posted here, that do not and will not honour our sacred pledge - an aspiration, an ideal, a doctrine or whatever one swears by, and as such, have to be carefully handled otherwise we singaporeans will be fooled by them in our daily lives, in the belief that their words can be trusted.
The truth is self evident for all to see. Will you, who is answerable for yourself, honour our sacred pledge? Or will you word play out of answering this simple question?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Atobe, enjoy your word play and twisting of other's view, as you usually do, and will continue to do. I suppose you must find comfort and solace in doing it. It is your belief system and that which keep you alive.
And I have no wish to destroy that which keeps you alive.
Enjoy yourself, but do be aware that the rest of us are more earth-bound, with realities to face, for there are still people, even posted here, that do not and will not honour our sacred pledge - an aspiration, an ideal, a doctrine or whatever one swears by, and as such, have to be carefully handled otherwise we singaporeans will be fooled by them in our daily lives, in the belief that their words can be trusted.
The truth is self evident for all to see. Will you, who is answerable for yourself, honour our sacred pledge? Or will you word play out of answering this simple question?
Atobe has one thing which I would like to ask you, since you seemed to keep avoiding the subject.
Do you know the difference between a pledge and an aspiration?
Or are you just suddenly using the word "aspiration" because LKY said so?
Let me make it easier for you.
A pledge is an OATH, which is a vow or a promise (made to the nation in this case, NOT PAP), making the nation a witness to the binding nature of this vow or promise. In legal terms, its LEGAL BINDING. It is no aspiration, but an enforcement that you have placed upon yourself, when you make the pledge. In legal terms, if you don't meet the terms spelt out in the pledge, you are liable for it.
Aspiration is far different. It's a goal, an aim, an ambition, which means that you make your best efforts to reach it, but if you cannot reach it, no one would blame you.
If our pledge is an aspiration, why don't we just call it an aspiration?
"We the people of Singapore, aspire ourselves to be one united nation..."
By not distinguishing the difference, and then coming here to challenge Atobe, it clearly reflects upon you as an ignorant individual who just listens to LKY (and use the word "Aspiration" automatically).
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By stating that the Singapore PLEDGE is an aspiration, LKY is already WRONG 100%.
From a legal point of view
From an oxford dictionary point of view
And this coming from a legally-trained and English-educated person...
He is 100% dead wrong. Trust the people like xtreyier to challenge the dictionary and the legal point just because LKY says so.