Are we becoming Mohicans?
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Originally posted by mancha:
That means the "Stop at 2" Policy is not the cause of the declining population.
Its the "Use Your Hands" Campaign that really did us in.
Classic. XD
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seriously i think the bonus gov given us is not even 1% of how much we need (excluding the stress factor) to bring up a child = =..
and judging from the well being of singaporean now.. to survive alone is a tough challenge still got the time and mood to make babies? they think every one is paid millions like them?
i dun wanan bring my kid into this world to suffer...
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Originally posted by actualization~:
seriously i think the bonus gov given us is not even 1% of how much we need (excluding the stress factor) to bring up a child = =..
and judging from the well being of singaporean now.. to survive alone is a tough challenge still got the time and mood to make babies? they think every one is paid millions like them?
i dun wanan bring my kid into this world to suffer...
expecting 100% coverage? so is your kid or LKY's kid? -
we have see enough nonsense everyday..... and we are living and trying hard to except all these i shall wait for better time like if i can earn $1m every month maybe considering having off-springs timing has turn ripe. Definitely our kid cannot wear sarong... we need to breed strong kid breed. Even the worst piece can be a minister type of quali
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Originally posted by Ah Chia:
All this of course is due to Lee Kuan Yew's stop at 2 policy, now want to put the blame on Singaporeans. Never want to admit mistake.
This is typical of the old bastard.
Lee Kuan Yew, why you always act like wise man, but never admit your rubbish policies are all nothing but filth?
You ar, Lee Kuan Yew, I also don't know whether to pity you, laugh at you or give you a slap across your fucking face.
Stubborn like ox, die die insist on your own filth, never want to admit errors.
Bastard is bastard.
Want to talk like some wise dude, wah so wise.
Wo Pui!
Pui. Pui. Pui. Pui. Pui.
Time for merger?
I heard that state TV is selling the propaganda of economic union with Malaysia.
This is the first step of course.
it got nothing to stop at 2 policies. it is an economics choice.
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Originally posted by Catknight:
SINGAPORE: Even after the millions spent on Baby Bonuses and other parenthood incentives, policy-makers are confounded by a problem that goes to the very heart of survival: Singaporeans are still not reproducing themselves.
And on Friday, Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew reflected on this challenge at the National University of Singapore Society's (NUSS) dialogue on "Singapore and Singaporeans: A Quarter Century From Now".
In Singapore, he said, it is becoming a "lifestyle choice" for women past the age of 30 to stay single as they are well-travelled and have no one to worry about.
"My daughter is one of them. What can I do? When she was in her early 30s, my wife used to tell her, what you want is a 'MRS'. She did not think it was funny.
"Now she is 50-plus, her mother is bedridden, I'm on a pacemaker, I got this rambling house. Everything is looked after now. What happens if we are both not there?...
"She says, 'I'll look after myself'. But we know she has not been looking after herself all these years. When she went to Boston for training, her cooking was to just to put her salmon into the microwave."
Mr Lee added: "But that's life. It's a choice that she has made, and a choice that 30 per cent of our women are making. Who am I to complain? Society lives with the consequences it is making."
The problem that this trend creates: "Without new citizens and permanent residents, we are going to be the last of the Mohicans. We are going to disappear".
But immigrants bring their own challenges to a society.
Some Singaporean parents have complained about migrants entering schools and competing with local children. He urged parents: "Would you want them to compete against you or with you as part of the team? If you don't have them with you as part of your team, they will be on the Chinese and Indian team."
Some of these migrant students, he acknowledged, use Singapore as a stepping stone to other countries. So "why are we so stupid" in allowing this?
"Because more than half (of these students) do not make the grade to go to America, and the second tier is not bad for us."
Singapore needs to draw from a big talent pool beyond its own shores, "so that we can continue to punch above our weight. No other way".
"Would you want the pie to grow? You want a small pie with your children taking the last portion, or a big pie where you get a bigger portion, even though the talented person may get a bigger slice? That's life. If you are afraid of talent, you will not succeed."
One catch he foresees: Even as the second generation of today's immigrants become more Singaporean, one dubious habit they might also adopt, is to have only one child.
"So we got to make this breakthrough, otherwise we are going to have a constant problem.
"We got to get people to realise that if we don't have 2.1 (babies) to replace ourselves, we are always dependent."
Earlier in the evening, Mr Lee officially opened the new NUS Alumni Complex, which comprises the redeveloped NUSS Kent Ridge Guild House and Shaw Foundation Alumni House.To understand the present, we need to trace our past.
During the late 1960s, after Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia, LKY practically was in a state of shock, was bitter towards his new found circumstances, and took on a different tone in dealing with a new set of challenges.
Even Toh Chin Chye had mentioned that LKY was not himself, and the Singapore Government was without a helmsmen - with Toh Chin Chye, Goh Keng Swee and Rajaratnam pulling the Singapore State Government together.
Soon after the failure with merger, LKY was seen to resolve many problems through extreme measures, using an over sized sledgehammer to drive a nail home, using an elephant gun to shoot a mouse.
He was ruthless in many of his dealings with political opponents, and seem to have lost the lofty democratic values that he had preached - firstly to the British Colonial Government in the 1950s, then again towards the Malay UMNO politicians during the two years when Singapore was part of Malaysia.
After 9 August 1965, Singaporeans were subjected to a slew of PAP new programs implemented in exact methods employed by the Communist States - whom LKY had admired in secret for their ruthless efficiencies implementing Central Command.
Against the better advise given by economic planners, LKY had his own priority in dealing with his own nightmare of having to face the challenges of a population growing in geometrical proportions while he is handicapped with a small state having no hinterland and no resources.
It was more then fate that LKY ignored those advise as he got bogged in his own nightmares of personal survival, even as he worry about developing an economy to sustain revenue for his own programs after being thrown out of Malaysia.
The nighmare began when - Prior to Singapore being kicked out of Malaysia, the Malaysian Government had considered arresting LKY and even the entire Singapore Cabinet.
Immediately after 9 August 1965, LKY's first and foremost priority was to quickly build up a credible defense force with the primary task of protecting his government first before the British completed their announced pull out from the Far East by 1970 - (this date was negotiated to a later date
Defense was and has been a Number ONE issue for Singapore since 9 August 1965 - with its origins from LKY's own nightmarish close shave dealings with Malaysia.
Since then, Singaporeans had to make sacrifices to accomodate and accomplish LKY's own fears, fetish and vanity.
Besides the "Stop-at-2" program, LKY was uncomfortable with a population that was over-educated that could challenge his uncertain political position in the late 1960s.
By the late 1960s, Singaporeans desiring to enter University of Singapore had to apply for a "Suitability Certificate" that is given after the Internal Security Department has made background checks on the suitability of the applicant.
After a long running battle to curtail the importance of Chinese education at Nantah or Nanyang University, which became a shell by the mid-1970s, Nanyang University was closed down in 1980 - under the guise of stamping out Communist infiltration and the pervasive communalism amongst the Chinese educational institutions.
To cement his grip on Singapore Politics, a plan was developed to have 90 percent of Singaporeans housed in government built HDB units, and subjected to HDB set of rules and regulations of ownership - (in which one can lose ownership if one infringe any of the numerous PAP amended legislations).
Public transportation in the hands of private corporations that were family owned or partnership owned, or public listed - were all nationalised under the false charges of poor standards and inefficiencies; when in actual fact these private businesses were anti-PAP to begin with - as LKY had supported the Unionists during the Colonial Government.
Ironically, even as LKY persecute everyone whom he falsely charge as being a Communist or Communist influenced, the Singapore economic infrastructure is a mirror of the Communist ways in Central Planning but with a twist, in that his plans are executed through major Private Enterprises that are all State Owned Companies.
These State Owned Companies controlling almost 90 percent of the essential services provided to Singaporeans have also become the major employer of Singaporeans.
With their own interests at stake, Singaporeans were "persuaded" to accept short term employment contracts that are renewable every 3 to 5 years - the reason given to Singaporeans was that the Employer should be given the flexibility to trim the work force according to economic circumstances.
Without any control over our own future, can Singaporeans dare to pro-create simply to satisfy LKY's own needs to sustain Singapore ?
Singaporeans should start to look at the Swedish model to discover why the Swedes are able to see an explosion of new births even as Sweden is reputed to have the highest taxes imposed on the Citizens.
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i would put it this way.
1) Singaporean are not "Having IT" and Not " Enjoying IT"
Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand and Australia were also well below the world average for time spent on intercourse.
2) Stressful lifestyles - needless to say it is a Norm for Singaporean to work well into after office hour. High expenses, limited saving.
3) Limited Lifestyles -- Limited Career options limited, No alternalte lifestyle, enclosed social viewed.
I think it is necessary to look at Single adult adopting children.
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My uncle had 4 sons, failed to get a daughter. He worked very hard to raise them up and now my cousins are all successful, one migrated to Canada. They meet happily as a big family once a year. Those in Singapore meet every week. NOT once did he and wife mentioned how LKY affected their decision to have babies! simply because LKY, nor the government was part of the family.
and nobody at that time would expect anything from the government, to help them raise their kids,
there were parents who really planned and decided to have only 1 or 2 kids so that they could give them the best, not told by the MP.
Were jobs easier to come by in those days than it is now, for parents? I don't think so.
money is not in the priority list of consideration! many families, especially the muslim families, I know a Malay who is working as a clerk in the refinary, but he has 5 kids and they always party happily together at labrador park, somemore wife not working.
If going on holidays bring greater happiness to you and your wife than having a child or two, than go on holidays.
If you are suffering now living in this world, and you are under 21, you can blame your parents, (and if LKY happens to be your father, you should blame him.) and it is right that you don't bring children into this world if you cannot give them happiness.
If you are not bringing happiness to your parents, then I think it is right to think that children will not bring you happiness, so don't have children.
If husband and wife have difficulty bringing up children of their own, I can't see how single parent find it easier to bring up child he or she adopts.
you are giving too much credit to the government when you expect so much from the government. LKY has 3 children you know.....
The choice to have baby and how many depends on many factors, the most important consideration is whether the couples love children, believing that children bring them joy and happiness?
It is your choice.
The mohicans vanished when the whites conquered the west. Singaporeans mohicans would be self-destroy, and blame it on LKY, or PAP.
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Come to think of it, the ministers don't really have that much kids either isn't it ?
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Originally posted by mancha:
That means the "Stop at 2" Policy is not the cause of the declining population.
Its the "Use Your Hands" Campaign that really did us in.
I think the internet probably contributed more to that!
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Greying population is nothing really bad as portray by many.
What's wrong?
It's just economics and greed that urge for a bigger population viz consumerism and taxes.
$$$ we can increase from billion to trillions to....., but on resource.....
remember we only have one Earth.
ya..only 1 earth..and the earth is abit too crowded now..time to cull..lky isnt wise..hes just intelligent..and the words posted by TS isnt very wrong this time..no1 can be so accurate and far sighted..they are after all mere humans.he did what he felt was right at that time..new situations,new informations made him had new decisions..he had to always made sure his policies will benefit both himself and the country..hence ever changing policies..im not supporting him nor a lover of his ideas..just that this time..he covered pretty politically correct..
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THERE ARE ALOT OF INFAMOUS FIGURE IN HISTORY WITH INMEASURABLE MERIT DURING YOUNGER DAYS BUT BECOMING INCREASINGLY EVIL AND NONSENSICAL DURING OLD AGE.. QIN SHI HUANG before he unify China he is a great leader, after unify China he become a tyrant. Mao. Farmer mao has been a great leader in unify China and acheive alot of big success, contribute to China stability in the past decades but when his old old he does CULTURAL REVOLUTION... sadly to say equivilant to QIN SHI HUANG BURNING OF BOOKS AND BURYING OF SCHOLARS.
So doesn't mean anyone with great unmeasurable merit during his younger days can talk forever on how and how so and so great... mistakes through the years can't cover the hideous fact behind a hyprocritic and unsincere and selfish leadership
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
ya..only 1 earth..and the earth is abit too crowded now..time to cull..lky isnt wise..hes just intelligent..and the words posted by TS isnt very wrong this time..no1 can be so accurate and far sighted..they are after all mere humans.he did what he felt was right at that time..new situations,new informations made him had new decisions..he had to always made sure his policies will benefit both himself and the country..hence ever changing policies..im not supporting him nor a lover of his ideas..just that this time..he covered pretty politically correct..
Economics are figures and resources are finite.
There is no need to increase population to cover up his "correctness" on the economy gains.
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My uncle had 4 sons, failed to get a daughter.
Your uncle Malaysian or Singaporean?
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I suppose when the singapore population hits 6 million in the future and puts a strain on the economy, resources and the residents, people will say it has nothing to do with current government policies.
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Originally posted by charlize:
I suppose when the singapore population hits 6 million in the future and puts a strain on the economy, resources and the residents, people will say it has nothing to do with current government policies.
Just a little claustrophobia?
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Just a little claustrophobia?
Have you even been to the neighbourhood town centres lately?
On a weekday, some neighbourhood town centres are almost as crowded as Orchard Road on a weekend.
From students to old people to foreigners all hanging around.
Scary.
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I prefer to spend my time away from the crowds whenever possible.
But guess what,
The Nature Reserves, the reserviors catchment, Pulau Ubin, Sungei Buloh, are overran during weekends.
That's scary!
So weekend the best place to be is at home or out of this country.
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Scary.
Crazy.
All due to PAP.
They are good at messing up society.
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
I prefer to spend my time away from the crowds whenever possible.
But guess what,
The Nature Reserves, the reserviors catchment, Pulau Ubin, Sungei Buloh, are overran during weekends.
That's scary!
So weekend the best place to be is at home or out of this country.
And they say we can still put another million or 2 residents on the island.
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Originally posted by charlize:
And they say we can still put another million or 2 residents on the island.
By then, we may have ERPs on the Nature Reserves, Catchments or Pulau Ubin.
If we still have them.
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And they say we can still put another million or 2 residents on the island.
The PAP bastards must be voted out.
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Originally posted by Ah Chia:
Your uncle Malaysian or Singaporean?
haha, I knew this question would be coming.
My uncle born in China, came to Singapore while my father went to Malaysia in the late 50s. He later studied in Chinese High School, that time not elite yet. Stayed in Bukit Ho Swee then got to move because of the fire. Is he Singaporean?
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Low birth rate is due to educated and working women...? Because it's their lifestyle choice? I have a little suspicion and doubt about this. I dont think that's true.
Maybe for some cases, yeah, like the LKY daughter, or even people such as Condoleeza Rice (she is also single).
But I think those women are rare, those kind of career-focused women who dont mind to stay single, and in fact, there are men who are like that too, not just women.
But for majority, I dont think it is the reason.
Most likely I believe the reason is due to high costs of living, in particular, the property cost, and other living costs.
Due to these costs, majority of couple have to work (meaning the husband and wife) and they work long hours, and still can only make a certain amount only.
You just need to interview young couples and ask them what they think and why they have no babies yet, or only 1-2 kids.
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It's always Singaporeans' fault.
Really.