Useless to crap about PAP now...
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When it was clear to me (from 2006/2007 "click to link") that there will be major upheavals in Singapore's economy and the PAP government was more interested in making policies to benefit self and party, I was one of their fierces critic (to put it mildly).
While the economy is still very weak and might get worse.... the stock market has rebounded, meaning the economy might get better even if we see sluggish activities.
Singaporeans are known to care only whether they have a job.
If they have a job, they will vote PAP.
Therefore it is useless to crap about the PAP.
True or false?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
A bit of history lesson....
July 2007
BTW you people know that the market crashed today? [page: 1, 2, 3,... 25, 26, 27]
November 2007
Looks like its getting really serious.... [page: 1, 2, 3,... 42, 43, 44]
Jan 2008
It no longer just Looks like its getting really serious..... [page: 1, 2, 3,... 13, 14, 15] -
In general, singaporeans are just too conservative to allow new party to take over them. They just whine, crap and that is it. I have a friend who voted for the opposition and yet commented that the oppositions are not good enough. For a new party to take over, the mentality of the locals have to change.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
In general, singaporeans are just too conservative to allow new party to take over them. They just whine, crap and that is it. I have a friend who voted for the opposition and yet commented that the oppositions are not good enough. For a new party to take over, the mentality of the locals have to change.
Fact remains that the opposition haven't been able to present much other than the blame game. I'm not interested in knowing what the PAP did wrong, i'm only interested in knowing what the opposition intend to do different when they're in place.Instead of expecting that the mentality of the locals change to suit some Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, perhaps the opposition should change their tactics to suit the expectations of the locals.
LKY will die sooner or later, given his age that's going to be a fact. And i doubt LHL has the stones to hold PAP together after that.
The people i mix with are not interested in when the PAP will be oust out of power, but rather the aftermath - what the Opposition (Now the Dominant Party) will do AFTER they get in power?
No one really likes the PAP, but the opposition has done little to show that they are capable of better ideas. The anti PAP here thinks by posting the dirty linen of the PAP we would all suddenly be enlightened and embrace the opposition.
The majority of Singaporeans i think are not stupid, all are capable of voicing their own opinions and capable of identifying propaganda and facts, they are not at all surprised at how dirty the PAP and the Lees can play.
The Opposition are not good enough because they are taking the wrong strategy. They assume by exposing the ill dealings of the PAP we would support them when the fact is most have already expected it.
My views, at least.
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As long as PAP abuse their power to keep out the opposition, there can be no strong opposition and only when PAP destroys the country ...
Those that are capable but do not wish to be running dogs will leave the country.
Those that cannot stand to see their country overrun by foreigners, will leave.
Those that want to live in a country instead of living in "company premises" will leave.
Unfortunately the rest are apathetic to such issues and will vote PAP as long as they have a job, considering that no strong opposition can emerge with the PAP abusing their power to keep out the opposition.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Fact remains that the opposition haven't been able to present much other than the blame game. I'm not interested in knowing what the PAP did wrong, i'm only interested in knowing what the opposition intend to do different when they're in place.Instead of expecting that the mentality of the locals change to suit some Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, perhaps the opposition should change their tactics to suit the expectations of the locals.
LKY will die sooner or later, given his age that's going to be a fact. And i doubt LHL has the stones to hold PAP together after that.
The people i mix with are not interested in when the PAP will be oust out of power, but rather the aftermath - what the Opposition (Now the Dominant Party) will do AFTER they get in power?
No one really likes the PAP, but the opposition has done little to show that they are capable of better ideas. The anti PAP here thinks by posting the dirty linen of the PAP we would all suddenly be enlightened and embrace the opposition.
The majority of Singaporeans i think are not stupid, all are capable of voicing their own opinions and capable of identifying propaganda and facts, they are not at all surprised at how dirty the PAP and the Lees can play.
The Opposition are not good enough because they are taking the wrong strategy. They assume by exposing the ill dealings of the PAP we would support them when the fact is most have already expected it.
My views, at least.
To be fair to the oppositions, they are being watched so closely and treated unfairly. They are not given much freedom and opportunity to communicate with the people.
Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, ===> this need not be unreasonable. There is no such thing as western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty, people are brainwashed already by saying so. Excellent work of LKY. It depends very much on how people manage the freedom, equality and liberty, it has nothing to do whether it is western, eastern or whatever. Whatever it is there must be some kind of limit. LKY is very against Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty because it will stand in the way to serve some kind of self interest if he allow these in Singapore.
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
As long as PAP abuse their power to keep out the opposition, there can be no strong opposition and only when PAP destroys the country ...
Those that are capable but do not wish to be running dogs will leave the country.
Those that cannot stand to see their country overrun by foreigners, will leave.
Those that want to live in a country instead of living in "company premises" will leave.
Unfortunately the rest are apathetic to such issues and will vote PAP as long as they have a job, considering that no strong opposition can emerge with the PAP abusing their power to keep out the opposition.
the old evil already said on TV that there is not going to be fair with oppositions.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
To be fair to the oppositions, they are being watched so closely and treated unfairly. They are not given much freedom and opportunity to communicate with the people.
Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, ===> this need not be unreasonable. There is no such thing as western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty, people are brainwashed already by saying so. Excellent work of LKY. It depends very much on how people manage the freedom, equality and liberty, it has nothing to do whether it is western, eastern or whatever. Whatever it is there must be some kind of limit. LKY is very against Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty because it will stand in the way to serve some kind of self interest if he allow these in Singapore.
To begin with, the world is never fair. Some are more equal than others.
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
To begin with, the world is never fair. Some are more equal than others.
Yes, especially in the political scene in sg. -
PAP loves this type of "afterall the world is not fair" defeatists attitude, allowing them to take as much of the people's money as possible.
My strategy is simple. Make my money in Singapore but behave like a foreigner. Like the foreigners, I send my money "home" (overseas).
Once in a while I "go home" and behave like a king, from all the money I send "back" from Singapore. One day I will "go home" for good.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Fact remains that the opposition haven't been able to present much other than the blame game. I'm not interested in knowing what the PAP did wrong, i'm only interested in knowing what the opposition intend to do different when they're in place.Instead of expecting that the mentality of the locals change to suit some Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, perhaps the opposition should change their tactics to suit the expectations of the locals.
LKY will die sooner or later, given his age that's going to be a fact. And i doubt LHL has the stones to hold PAP together after that.
The people i mix with are not interested in when the PAP will be oust out of power, but rather the aftermath - what the Opposition (Now the Dominant Party) will do AFTER they get in power?
No one really likes the PAP, but the opposition has done little to show that they are capable of better ideas. The anti PAP here thinks by posting the dirty linen of the PAP we would all suddenly be enlightened and embrace the opposition.
The majority of Singaporeans i think are not stupid, all are capable of voicing their own opinions and capable of identifying propaganda and facts, they are not at all surprised at how dirty the PAP and the Lees can play.
The Opposition are not good enough because they are taking the wrong strategy. They assume by exposing the ill dealings of the PAP we would support them when the fact is most have already expected it.
My views, at least.
Most people are afraid of change. Some are so used to certain constant and refuse to change. Others are so used to change and they never stop changing.
We lament we have no innovation, this is partly why.
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If, and there is a chance that this stock market rally is a sucker's rally, I will be back to fark the assholes that make policies for self, cronies and in the interests of their relatives and running dogs. Until then it is a waste of time...
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.... a waste of time and it is better to find a real home to go home to (for self and descendants).
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
To be fair to the oppositions, they are being watched so closely and treated unfairly. They are not given much freedom and opportunity to communicate with the people.
Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty which frankly is unreasonable, ===> this need not be unreasonable. There is no such thing as western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty, people are brainwashed already by saying so. Excellent work of LKY. It depends very much on how people manage the freedom, equality and liberty, it has nothing to do whether it is western, eastern or whatever. Whatever it is there must be some kind of limit. LKY is very against Western ideal of freedom, equality and liberty because it will stand in the way to serve some kind of self interest if he allow these in Singapore.
Their websites are there, we can access it still. Singnet or Starhub isn't blocking us from accessing it, and there are sufficient discussions on stomp, sgforums and perhaps some other forums for this.
There are enough channels for them to gain access to the average Singaporean citizens (those that have internet access). Yet i have seen little signs of them doing so, and their websites seemed to be filled with the evil doings of the PAP and LKY and nothing else. CSJ's brand of civil disobedience doesn't appeal to most average Singaporeans either.
Freedom, Equality and Liberty are ideals. Open to interpretation by people from different social/religious/national backgrounds.
I certainly have no love of LKY, but i've read enough to know that there are differences between the interpretation of Western and Eastern ideals. Look at Taiwan and South Korea, hell even Thailand to see the difference between the management of the same exact ideals. It's not going to be as simple as you think it's going to be.
I want the same ideals as much, perhaps even more than you. But i see it as a double edge sword not as a natural higher progression.
The fact remains that the opposition has done little to prove they can do as good a job, even the PAP is learning faster than them to reach out through the internet.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
Yes, especially in the political scene in sg.
Might want to take a look at the political contributions of Obama, Hillary Clinton and McCain. -
Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
Most people are afraid of change. Some are so used to certain constant and refuse to change. Others are so used to change and they never stop changing.
We lament we have no innovation, this is partly why.
Change is a personal choice. We tell ourselves we have no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision already made.You say we have no innovation, yet i am in a company surrounded by creative people local and foreign.
If the opposition wishes to take the approach that the local Singaporeans are the oppressed and brainwashed mass eagerly awaiting the local equivalent of Obama i feel they are making a grave error.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Their websites are there, we can access it still. Singnet or Starhub isn't blocking us from accessing it, and there are sufficient discussions on stomp, sgforums and perhaps some other forums for this.
There are enough channels for them to gain access to the average Singaporean citizens (those that have internet access). Yet i have seen little signs of them doing so, and their websites seemed to be filled with the evil doings of the PAP and LKY and nothing else. CSJ's brand of civil disobedience doesn't appeal to most average Singaporeans either.
Freedom, Equality and Liberty are ideals. Open to interpretation by people from different social/religious/national backgrounds.
I certainly have no love of LKY, but i've read enough to know that there are differences between the interpretation of Western and Eastern ideals. Look at Taiwan and South Korea, hell even Thailand to see the difference between the management of the same exact ideals. It's not going to be as simple as you think it's going to be.
I want the same ideals as much, perhaps even more than you. But i see it as a double edge sword not as a natural higher progression.
The fact remains that the opposition has done little to prove they can do as good a job, even the PAP is learning faster than them to reach out through the internet.
so to say the political scene here has yet to reach its maturity? I still think it is the managing of freedom, equality and liberty that really counts not so much whether it is eastern or western.
Not all will go access internet. Some old folks are computer illiterate. I believe there are more the oppositions can do. For eg Dr Chee should do more than staging protests, i am not saying protests are bad.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Might want to take a look at the political contributions of Obama, Hillary Clinton and McCain.
Ok, thanks. Will look at it when I am in the mood. -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
so to say the political scene here has yet to reach its maturity? I still think it is the managing of freedom, equality and liberty that really counts not so much whether it is eastern or western.
Not all will go access internet. Some old folks are computer illiterate. I believe there are more the oppositions can do. For eg Dr Chee should do more than staging protests, i am not saying protests are bad.
It's hard to say and i would admit i do not know.But do not forget that Europe went through a great deal more blood and revolutions before they achieved political maturity. America also went through centuries of village life starting from the Mayflower Compact in 1620 and are already familar with settling matters through a democractic process. Even then, women and blacks were only allowed to vote in the 20th Century.
I just don't see it as a piece of hardware where i can just insert it and expected to work in a way better than the previous method. This principle pretty much applies to all business process, there are no absolutes and specifics are always important. Are you absolutely sure that if CSJ becomes the PM Singapore would take a leap forward? Maybe, but i'd bet my money against it.
I want to see CSJ do more than stage civil disobedience. I am more interested in what he would do if he was in office than listen to him rant about the PAP and LKY. And contrary to what you might think, i did read A Nation Cheated.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
It's hard to say and i would admit i do not know.But do not forget that Europe went through a great deal more blood and revolutions before they achieved political maturity. America also went through centuries of village life starting from the Mayflower Compact in 1620 and are already familar with settling matters through a democractic process. Even then, women and blacks were only allowed to vote in the 20th Century.
I just don't see it as a piece of hardware where i can just insert it and expected to work in a way better than the previous method. This principle pretty much applies to all business process, there are no absolutes and specifics are always important. Are you absolutely sure that if CSJ becomes the PM Singapore would take a leap forward? Maybe, but i'd bet my money against it.
I want to see CSJ do more than stage civil disobedience. I am more interested in what he would do if he was in office than listen to him rant about the PAP and LKY. And contrary to what you might think, i did read A Nation Cheated.
It is said the there need bloodshed before any change can happen. I am still finding how true is this.CSJ, no no, I don't want him to be PM, don't think he can make it. I absolutely agree that CSJ should do more than staging protests. Politics is not only about protests.
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
In general, singaporeans are just too conservative to allow new party to take over them. They just whine, crap and that is it. I have a friend who voted for the opposition and yet commented that the oppositions are not good enough. For a new party to take over, the mentality of the locals have to change.
Conservative? Why should SIngaporeans let another political party which is just as hopeless as PAP take over? This is 21st century but we are still stuck in 19th century politics. The mentality of the locals does not have to change, it's the quality of the alternative parties have to change. What is wrong with expecting quality when there is a political changeover? -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
It is said the there need bloodshed before any change can happen. I am still finding how true is this.CSJ, no no, I don't want him to be PM, don't think he can make it. I absolutely agree that CSJ should do more than staging protests. Politics is not only about protests.
What??!?! You expect CSJ to be a Che Gueverra? You can wait long long. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Conservative? Why should SIngaporeans let another political party which is just as hopeless as PAP take over? This is 21st century but we are still stuck in 19th century politics. The mentality of the locals does not have to change, it's the quality of the alternative parties have to change. What is wrong with expecting quality when there is a political changeover?
cool down. there is nothing wrong to expect quality for political changeover. that is why I am expecting opps to do more than protest. they need show more of what they can do for the people. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
What??!?! You expect CSJ to be a Che Gueverra? You can wait long long.
ha ha ha, I said I not for CSJ to be PM. who is che gueverra? so worked up, so funny -
u all hate PAP so much...