Meritocracy In Singapore --- A Mythical Illusion
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Originally posted by Ah Chia:
Don't insult women lah, guy want to pretend female.
Pui.
yak! -
You've got the same problem all over the world, not just Singapore lah! In the US, UK, Australia, HK, Malaysia etc. etc., the top students come disproportionately from upper income households. It's just a fact of life, unless you want us to go communist.
High academic achievers all over the world tend to come from weathier households for 2 reasons. First, as some have already pointed out in earlier posts, wealthier parents can afford to spend more money on their children's education, like extra tuition. In the US and UK, it takes the form of private schools, as public state schools are generally considered inferior in quality.
Second, wealthier parents also tend to be better educated, and they tend to actively encourage their children's intellectual development like buying them books when they are young and imparting their own knowledge to their children when talking to them.
Is this unfair? Yes, you can see it in that perspective. But it's a fact of life, just like how some people are better looking or some are taller. Life is full of unfairness. You cannot prevent parents from giving their children advantages. In fact, all nurturing parents WANT their children to succeed. The more weathy just tend to have more resources to lavish directly and indirectly on their children to help them succeed.
Of course, the Singapore government scholarship system could be improved to help remedy the inherent academic bias caused by social forces. I personally agree with that. The only point I want to make is that you can never totally eliminate the bias that a disproportionate number of scholarship holders will come from weathier households. This is not just a Singapore issue. It happens all over the world. Just look at the backgrounds of Rhodes Scholars to Oxford, for example.
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If wealth can produce genius, then LKY's generation is an anomaly.
His father was a salesman and his mother was just a regular housewife - both making a living to support a big family.
His was a story that was common amongst Singaporeans during the days before and after WW-2.
The point now is that 'Meritocracy' has been used to create a class division - the Rulers and the Ruled.
Even in the supposedly Classless society of Karl Marx's communist socialist state - there are those who are more equal than every average equal soul.
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The parable in Orwell's Animal Farm rings true - if one is awake lor, sadly i have doubts lar
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Sigh...when, when, will we grow up?
What is 'equality'?
How can there be equality when a women gives birth and men can't?
How can there be equality when one drives a car and one takes a bus?
How can there be equality when one has a well paying job and another a roadsweeper?
How can there be equality when one has a fat bank account and another not even a dollar in his pocket?
Grow up. Equality in a society means the adherence of laws and opportunities for all, regardless of rich or poor, black or white, male or female, etc.
Shall we create a truly 'equal' society? Men and women dressed the same, both give birth, all work the same job, all walk to work, all go to same school, ban TV, religion, recreation for its diversiveness. Is this the 'equal' society whiners want?
Are we an equal society be definition of laws? Look around, Are there any laws that differentiates one group of members from another? We may be a 3rd world country, but our laws and opportunities are not different from 1st world. Are there any laws that say the rich will be judge differently from the poor? Are there any laws that say a black skinned testimonial holds lesser value than a white or yellow skinned?
Can women vote? Can women go to school? Can a chinese get scholarship from a govt? Can an indian or japanese from a different caste move up in society? Can a different religion build their religious citadels? Do i need to go on?
Who is more 'equal' than other citizens? All I know is that we are all equal, our PM only a first amongst equals, the cabinet, our elected representatives and judges respected only.
With such equalities, therefore the opportunity to either excel or fail in life lies with the citizens - us, ourselves. Is there a need to moan, whine, divide, create chaos, spead hate?
PS: Stop to think as well about 'meritocracy' in our society as well. True meritocracy is blind and knows not socialist, democratic or altrusic terms. Only the best is selected.
How often had our society decisions needed to based their awards of 'meritocracy' on socialist and altrusic terms? If pure 'meritocracy' is used, many more of our citizens may NOT have benefitted in this globalized world.
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xtreyier, my guess is when parents, bring up intelligent children , otherwise, the vicious cycle of ... will just go n on, forget about society, schools or university, - they teach , yes, knowledge - good for work, good to make money lor, but to have a sea-change in areas that need transformation it has to start from intellegence lar, its my stance, i could be 'rite', i could ne 'wrong' - its my predicament, thanks
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Originally posted by kristovorus:
some of TS points are valid. However have u ever wondered why THEY are living in the private housing and why YOU are living in the HDB? This is because they ( the previous generation) had worked hard and reaped the bounty. This bounty is now being spent on their offspring to increase their chance to succeed in life.
And isn't this how life is? Whatever you do in life affects your children the most. When you work ur way from rag-to-riches, you are probably already at middle-approaching old age. Can't really enjoy that much.. Your children would spend the first half of their lives in luxury though, and then most probably spend the other half of their lives in luxury too. Why do u begrudge the privileged of what their parents worked hard for? You should instead be working hard so your children can join the ranks of the 'elites'.
Meritocracy is mostly based on the principle of 'fairness'. If you're good, you'll be given a chance to succeed right?
So what is this " fairness " ? what is fair? Who determines it? Where is the line defining "unfair advantage" being drawn at? Is it wrong to capitalize on my father's hard work..? Not everyone can be like Bill Gates, who has already decided to donate his whole fortune to charity after he dies, rather than leaving it behind for his children.
Why cant rich kids get scholarships if they can make the grade? While it is true that the less-fortunate might be more deserving, denying people of scholarships because of their economic status runs counter to the very idea of meritocracy. How is it being fair? In the end, you can never please everyone.
I do not support elitism. But given the nature of humans, i believe that even if the whole system was resetted and given a clean slate, there will still be a few individuals rising up to take the status of 'elites'. So whats the point of doing that? Its being unfair to those of the past generation who already worked hard to ensure the good life of their descendants.
This is the immutable nature of human society. I suggest that instead of ranting against it, join it instead. (:
PS. i do not belong to the group of people that might be termed as 'elite' . Well.. my family was very rich in the past, but unfortunately the family fortune was wiped out in the 97 crisis and we never really recovered. FYI i DO live in a hdb now (:
Please provide proof that their parents were mainly rags-to-riches stories.I do not dispute that you have the rights to spend what you work for,but when you use that advantage to propel yourself into a position of power,it would do these Elites well to remember that this is not an entitlement.They would do well to remember that they are not God,and that we can tear them down from their pedestals easily,even if by 1 person's power alone.
They would also do well to cut out the arrogance and imcompetence they are continually showing us.
Quote "Meritocracy is mostly based on the principle of 'fairness'. If you're good, you'll be given a chance to succeed right?"
The above sentence is bullsh!t in Singapore nowadays.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
1. A nation needs intelligent people for its administration.
2. The rich has the resources to tutor their children best, and pass on their experiences or aquaintances to them.3. Such children will have a headstart in life compared to the middle classes or poor in our equal society.
4. PSC grants are but a way to bind such rich kids to serve our nation.
5. Meanwhile, being a socialist democracy, the state provides the best tutors possible to train up our middle class and poor children - U grade teachers even for primary schools, to be on par with the rich.
6. Ultimately, it is our children and parents who must grasp such opportunities offered by our society. Meritocracy is blind to all, only offered to the best, regardless of rich or poor, black or white, and will never deny it to anyone on socialist or altrusic terms.
7. Singapore is an open and equal society, and one social leveller is the army as well as civil society groups for everyone to mix and get aquainted for a duration if not for life.
8. Political leadership is not the only goal in life. If everyone is a politician, Singapore will be a boring state. We need engineers, scientists, lawyers, doctors, as well as people of the arts and non-academic professions - music, films, literary works, sports, etc.
9.Threadstarter is too narrow minded and had failed to see the wider picture of our society and its realities for a democratic state to function.He focussed only on leadership and the presumed elitism attached. Singapore is more than just politics, politics which we have the power of vote to change, but only when we look on the wider societal frame and opportunities given to everyone to excel, as well as the integrity calibre of the leaders or the lack of it as a determination factor.
10. TS best grow up and look further than the length of his nose and open his eyes wide if he intends to serve society. Singaporeans are no longer the uneducated of yesterday.Even a roadsweeper may have an N level cert, something i guess the TS lacks. Education is not about earning big bucks, but a greater understanding of our world and the environment around us, and how we can expand/improve upon it, which is one way we will be elevated financially if we put such improvements to use and is recognised by the free market for it.
11. Do channel such energy of angst, belligerance, self frustrations and anarchy to better use such as sports or charitable works which may benefit mankind, if not our society.
5)Define "best tutors".I believe all of us at one time or the other have had our fair share of horror teachers,and worst of all ELITE teachers.6)That's bull,you didn't bother to read my post,did you?
7)Social leveller is the army?Definitely!Jobs For Foreigners/PRs/New Citizens , NS For Singaporeans!
9)You say i am narrow-minded?I wonder who are the ones constantly being talked about as "living in their ivory towers"?
10)Har?Speak simple English?What is your point?Just want to make a personal attack?
11)Sure i will,i am thinking of channeling it all towards the Pro-Foreigner MCYS Mini-star.I'm sure he'll appreciate the news inches. :D
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Originally posted by webben:
While I agree with the premise, the OP is a patronising jerk.
Who or what is OP?
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Originally posted by Vaum:
One meritocracy programs are still widely implemented in the civil service sector where classes of degree are much prefered than your quality of works in reality. How ironical for being meritocracy?
That's not Meritocracy.That's Elitism. -
Originally posted by Camb76:
You've got the same problem all over the world, not just Singapore lah! In the US, UK, Australia, HK, Malaysia etc. etc., the top students come disproportionately from upper income households. It's just a fact of life, unless you want us to go communist.
High academic achievers all over the world tend to come from weathier households for 2 reasons. First, as some have already pointed out in earlier posts, wealthier parents can afford to spend more money on their children's education, like extra tuition. In the US and UK, it takes the form of private schools, as public state schools are generally considered inferior in quality.
Second, wealthier parents also tend to be better educated, and they tend to actively encourage their children's intellectual development like buying them books when they are young and imparting their own knowledge to their children when talking to them.
Is this unfair? Yes, you can see it in that perspective. But it's a fact of life, just like how some people are better looking or some are taller. Life is full of unfairness. You cannot prevent parents from giving their children advantages. In fact, all nurturing parents WANT their children to succeed. The more weathy just tend to have more resources to lavish directly and indirectly on their children to help them succeed.
Of course, the Singapore government scholarship system could be improved to help remedy the inherent academic bias caused by social forces. I personally agree with that. The only point I want to make is that you can never totally eliminate the bias that a disproportionate number of scholarship holders will come from weathier households. This is not just a Singapore issue. It happens all over the world. Just look at the backgrounds of Rhodes Scholars to Oxford, for example.
I feel you have advanced a rather well-rounded point.And i agree with what you say.What i am against is those Elites who feel that they are entitled by their birthright to be where they are,and instead of assisting those who approach them for assistance,they instead show their Elite,Uncaring Faces and are arrogant,condescending towards these normal Singaporeans.Don't take the people for stupid,coz we are NOT.
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Originally posted by donkhead333:
agree..but is there anyway or any system that can take its place?
someone once said,anything is possible.
that is from him, not me.
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Quote "Meritocracy is mostly based on the principle of 'fairness'. If you're good, you'll be given a chance to succeed right?"
till the day i step into my grave, i will still ask the question, based on meritocracy, HChing should not receive her award. But how / why did she receive an award to recognise the damage which she did to singapore?
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i could only guess the answer: if in the USA, bankers could be paid lots of bonus even when they made huge losses, so could we in Singapore reward losers.
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Originally posted by Daddy!!:
Quote "Meritocracy is mostly based on the principle of 'fairness'. If you're good, you'll be given a chance to succeed right?"
till the day i step into my grave, i will still ask the question, based on meritocracy, HChing should not receive her award. But how / why did she receive an award to recognise the damage which she did to singapore?
You can question the committee that gave her the award, and they will give you a fair answer. If you are thinking that she is just a bimbo that get into high places because of her connection, you are wrong.
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Singapore has got a fairer meritocracy system than most countries, yes I'm comparing with UK and US as well. If you are economic unpriviledged, there is nothing that prevents you from going to the more elite schools if you got the grades. Can't pay the school fees? Well the govt pays it for you if you get above 265. And 265 is not an incredibly unattainable PSLE score - it is min entry for schools like RI or RGS. So you don't have to be the top of your cohort or anything.
try getting a King's Scholarship to study one of those prestigious boarding schools like Eton. There's no chance in hell if you are only averagely smart. And Eton's school fees are 30 000 pounds per annum... and no admission is not always based on merit either. tell me which system is fairer?
Every country has its fair share of academically elite coming from socially elite backgrds... it's just that in Singapore, it's easier to jump streams - from socially less elite to academically elite. I shld know, I'm one example.
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Originally posted by PoThePanda01:
Based on figures provided in 2007/08,about 53 percent of Public Service Commission scholarships go to those who live in private property.However,about 80% of the population live in HDB.Does this mean that those who live in private property are naturally more talented?And that those of us who live in HDB are less talented?
No,it does not!The PAP uses the term Meritocracy to explain why things are the way they are,but it is all an illusion.Let me explain why.
Although it is generally accepted that these scholarships are awarded on the basis of academic performance and individual achievement alone,why are the majority of these people(53%)from the socially-priviledged / rich / elite segments of society?
These students largely hail from the best schools and have benefited from the various schemes that cater to the academically talented,such as the Education Ministry's Gifted Education Programme.Their dominant social status arising from higher household incomes suggests that they possess the cultural capital required to "make it" in life,as nurtured by their parents who are likely to have attained qualifications at the tertiary level.
The same elite minority continue to receive value-added education throughout their schooling years at the expense of vast amounts of public funds.As a result,Singapore's education system,which has always been held up as a model of social mobility for all,is attenuated because one minority elitist group benefits from a distinct advantage over the others.
Many of you have been brainwashed to believe that it is natural that students from wealthier households will naturally have high academic achievements.And that this is so because they are naturally talented.Is this true?No,it is not!
These people control the prices of goods & services,which limits your options.You may have less time to study because you need to take up a job to support the family.You may not be able to afford the kind of extra tuition and development courses that they can.You may have had to give up opportunities due to financial constraints.
On the other hand,these elites are able to provide vast resources to train their offspring.That is the only difference between you and them.These elites in the PAP system,have sold you an illusion that there is Meritocracy and that you have progressed.You,my fellow HDB dweller,are as good as they are.Why shouldn't you be in their place?What makes them better?Nothing.
The only thing that is keeping you down is a system they have created in which you are just a battery to them.You are like a lab rat running on a wheel in a cage,in some level of the system,forever working hard to create wealth for those elites few at the top of the system.They give you back enough to live on,but most of what you deservedly work for is taken back by them in the end.
Over the years,there have been concerns about the attitudes of these students who are among the best and brightest and who are likely to secure positions of pre-eminence in society in the future.They think that it is their natural birth-right to be in a position of power,and they abuse it.
Is this the way you want to live?To just be a pawn in somebody's game?
Is this the way you want your future generations to live?To just be a battery in somebody's machine?
When the time comes,Do The Right Thing.
:)
Vote Wisely.
I think it just goes to show that students who are more affluent have more choices in work-life, skill-based activities, tuition fees and cash for extra books. That is why one could say "better students" might be wealthier as well, especially if there is a biased screening process whereby elite scholarships are better given to people of "noble" families to borrow a crude figure of speech.
However, i have also met wealthy landed property families who do not spend their money wisely and in my opinion, are VERY unlikely to actually produce men/women of grace and good character who are capable people at the end of the day.
I know at least a couple of wealthy families in Singapore who live in landed property, and they spend most of their cash not on bettering the education of their children, but on frequent holidays, lavish parties for friends and expensive art work, so much so that the children do not eat properly (rice and sausage...) nor do they have much tuition.
So it's hard to gauge, sometimes its not just about being wealthy, its also what you do with the cash. =)
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Meritocracy is the right way to go.
However, it seems in recent years, this ideology has been warped for the benefit of a select few.
Haiz.
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Originally posted by la luce nella piazza:
Singapore has got a fairer meritocracy system than most countries, yes I'm comparing with UK and US as well. If you are economic unpriviledged, there is nothing that prevents you from going to the more elite schools if you got the grades. Can't pay the school fees? Well the govt pays it for you if you get above 265. And 265 is not an incredibly unattainable PSLE score - it is min entry for schools like RI or RGS. So you don't have to be the top of your cohort or anything.
try getting a King's Scholarship to study one of those prestigious boarding schools like Eton. There's no chance in hell if you are only averagely smart. And Eton's school fees are 30 000 pounds per annum... and no admission is not always based on merit either. tell me which system is fairer?
Every country has its fair share of academically elite coming from socially elite backgrds... it's just that in Singapore, it's easier to jump streams - from socially less elite to academically elite. I shld know, I'm one example.
Hi,Propagandist from the Internet Bridgade.
Care to provide factual evidence?
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Originally posted by PoThePanda01:
Hi,Propagandist from the Internet Bridgade.
Care to provide factual evidence?
Hi, O Confrontational One.
Here is the factual evidence.
In Singapore, the top independent schools charge about 150 Sing Dollars a month, that is about 450 sing a term. In UK, a conservative estimate for schools in the HeadMaster's Conference league of boarding schools are about 8500 POUNDS a term (you can check this on Eton or Rugby School's website if you want). In Singapore, there is a scheme called the ESISS, which means the government pays 100% of your school fees if your PSLE score is 265 and above (varies from year to year) - about top 5% of the cohort. In Rugby School, if you somehow got in on a scholarship, you get 10% reduction on school fees (wow) and for the King's Scholarship at Eton, you have to be the TOP FEW (note top few = top 5 per year, as compared to top FIVE PERCENT in a year) to qualify.
Tell me, in which system is a child from a lower income family more likely to switch streams? I don't deny the odds are against the child from a underprivileged home to get to the top schools. Every country exhibits this situation - just that in Singapore, it is much easier to attend the academically good schools. I'm just saying, everyone disses the system and how it is unmeritocratic. But I'm stating the facts and I have experienced it - it boils down to the individual. Meritocracy does exist in our system, believe it or not.
you want more facts? Ok, uni admissions. Getting to uni when you are in a UK independent school is much easier than if you were in a Uk state school. For example, UK boarding school students account for about 6% of the cohort but 60% of Oxbridge offers go to students of the Headmaster's conference league. Coming from Eton makes it easier to get an unconditional offer of EE in A levels for Oxbridge admission (note that the usual normal offer is AAA A1). In Singapore, can you make it to uni with EEE? So even if you came from RJC and got like FFF, do you think you can make it to uni? there is no such thing as unconditional offers from our local unis and good overseas unis are unlikely to offer Singaporean students unconditional offers (unless you are a genius). If you came from say, EM3- it is not impossible to go to uni. Sure the road is longer : EM3, NT, ITE, Poly, Uni but it is possible and so many motivated people have done it.
i don't deny there are many obstacles on the way. But our system makes it so much easier. I won't blame you of course if you didn't know the Uk education system, but when I try and illustrate a comparision between our system and theirs to point out our strengths - pls don't immediately put me down as a propangadist alright?
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Ok Wait.
What's the purpose of a scholarship again ?
I think we are aiming our arrows at the wrong target.
There's nothing wrong with offering scholarships to students from any financial background.
The question lies in why are the rich families accepting it ?
Rich families don't need to rely on a scholarship to put their kids through the best school.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE PRESTIGE.
So that rich parents can brag about their child being the SCHOLAR. It's not about the money, nope, never was.
Should rich families accept or let the less privilege have the scholarship ? It depends on what kind of rich families are out there.
There's always the cheapskate rich.. (yes they do exist). And those who can forgo the prestige for a penny.
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Those that bitch about not getting scholarships are prob those that are too stupid to get one anyway
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Originally posted by dadeadman1337:
Those that bitch about not getting scholarships are prob those that are too stupid to get one anyway
No, i hv heard about those getting scholarship and yet commit suicide, aint that more stupid?? -
Originally posted by la luce nella piazza:
Hi, O Confrontational One.
Here is the factual evidence.
In Singapore, the top independent schools charge about 150 Sing Dollars a month, that is about 450 sing a term. In UK, a conservative estimate for schools in the HeadMaster's Conference league of boarding schools are about 8500 POUNDS a term (you can check this on Eton or Rugby School's website if you want). In Singapore, there is a scheme called the ESISS, which means the government pays 100% of your school fees if your PSLE score is 265 and above (varies from year to year) - about top 5% of the cohort. In Rugby School, if you somehow got in on a scholarship, you get 10% reduction on school fees (wow) and for the King's Scholarship at Eton, you have to be the TOP FEW (note top few = top 5 per year, as compared to top FIVE PERCENT in a year) to qualify.
Tell me, in which system is a child from a lower income family more likely to switch streams? I don't deny the odds are against the child from a underprivileged home to get to the top schools. Every country exhibits this situation - just that in Singapore, it is much easier to attend the academically good schools. I'm just saying, everyone disses the system and how it is unmeritocratic. But I'm stating the facts and I have experienced it - it boils down to the individual. Meritocracy does exist in our system, believe it or not.
you want more facts? Ok, uni admissions. Getting to uni when you are in a UK independent school is much easier than if you were in a Uk state school. For example, UK boarding school students account for about 6% of the cohort but 60% of Oxbridge offers go to students of the Headmaster's conference league. Coming from Eton makes it easier to get an unconditional offer of EE in A levels for Oxbridge admission (note that the usual normal offer is AAA A1). In Singapore, can you make it to uni with EEE? So even if you came from RJC and got like FFF, do you think you can make it to uni? there is no such thing as unconditional offers from our local unis and good overseas unis are unlikely to offer Singaporean students unconditional offers (unless you are a genius). If you came from say, EM3- it is not impossible to go to uni. Sure the road is longer : EM3, NT, ITE, Poly, Uni but it is possible and so many motivated people have done it.
i don't deny there are many obstacles on the way. But our system makes it so much easier. I won't blame you of course if you didn't know the Uk education system, but when I try and illustrate a comparision between our system and theirs to point out our strengths - pls don't immediately put me down as a propangadist alright?
Compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.Comparing Sg to UK is comparing Mount Everest to Bukit Timah hill.:D
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At least better than malaysia.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20090519-142347.html