Crooked Bridge over trouble water ,again?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Mai lah.. they already branded me a quitter... later they brand me a traitor , then I finish !!!
I still want to go back Sg to retirement ok ? Good.
So ah.. you use your brain to think lah....if you get it right.. good for you lor.
To me, the "causeway versus bridge" debate is a relatively straightforward issue. I am not sure what kind of "conspiracy theory" you have. But I hope it is backed by some kind of logical assessment and not just based on your usual unsubstantiated allegations.
Why do you think the Malaysian wants a bridge? It is to facilitate access and departure by ships to and from their port in Pasir Gudang. With the causeway, ships currently have to sail around Singapore, thereby making it less attractive for shippers to use Pasir Gudang port. Therefore, Singapore must be an idiot to spend millions of dollars to replace the causeway and end up increasing competition for our own ports in Pasir Panjang.
Bottomline is that the bridge benefits Malaysia at the expense of Singapore. It is therefore not in our national interest to agree to the bridge proposal.
You agree with my assessment?
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I like the crooked bridge... at least there's a flow through of water, which has been stagnant and clogged up with crap, faeces, raw sewerage, effluent, toxic chemical dumps, plastic bags, styrofoam cups, tires, human bodies and dead animal carcasses ever since the causeway was built. that's like a zillion years of shiit, stuck along the waterfront of JB and Kranji. perhaps we can finally get back clearwater at Pasir Ris, Changi and Tuas. (yeah right). Singapore used to be as clear as the Maldives... it's the stinking PSA which corrupted our waters, they should be bankrupted for doing that to our environment.
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Originally posted by Hbbo:
To me, the "causeway versus bridge" debate is a relatively straightforward issue. I am not sure what kind of "conspiracy theory" you have. But I hope it is backed by some kind of logical assessment and not just based on your usual unsubstantiated allegations.
Why do you think the Malaysian wants a bridge? It is to facilitate access and departure by ships to and from their port in Pasir Gudang. With the causeway, ships currently have to sail around Singapore, thereby making it less attractive for shippers to use Pasir Gudang port. Therefore, Singapore must be an idiot to spend millions of dollars to replace the causeway and end up increasing competition for our own ports in Pasir Panjang.
Bottomline is that the bridge benefits Malaysia at the expense of Singapore. It is therefore not in our national interest to agree to the bridge proposal.
You agree with my assessment?
Is that your "conspiracy theory" ?
It seems logical.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Is that your "conspiracy theory" ?
It seems logical.
There is no conspiracy involved in my theory. Just logical deduction. Care to share your "theory"? -
Originally posted by Hbbo:
To me, the "causeway versus bridge" debate is a relatively straightforward issue. I am not sure what kind of "conspiracy theory" you have. But I hope it is backed by some kind of logical assessment and not just based on your usual unsubstantiated allegations.
Why do you think the Malaysian wants a bridge? It is to facilitate access and departure by ships to and from their port in Pasir Gudang. With the causeway, ships currently have to sail around Singapore, thereby making it less attractive for shippers to use Pasir Gudang port. Therefore, Singapore must be an idiot to spend millions of dollars to replace the causeway and end up increasing competition for our own ports in Pasir Panjang.
Bottomline is that the bridge benefits Malaysia at the expense of Singapore. It is therefore not in our national interest to agree to the bridge proposal.
You agree with my assessment?
Seriously, do you think the Malaysian ex-PM MM wanted a bridge to facilitate access and departure of ships to and from their port at Pasir Gudang ?
Firstly, the Second Link Bridge is a natural barrier to any large size VLCC and the Container Ships attempting to sail through the narrow space between the vertical piers that support the Second Link.
Secondly, even at the highest point of the Second Link at Tuas, the span will allow only one vessel to pass through the narrow gap at any one time and in any single direction.
Is this an economical way of managing any commercial maritime traffic ?
Thirdly, from the maritime chart of the waters between Johor and Singapore - almost the entire stretch of water is too shallow for those VLCC shipping if it can manage to pass through the Second Link.
The proposed suspended bridge to replace the Causeway was mooted by ex-PM MM as his last hurrah project for the sake of posterity, and by the standards of the shady deals practised in Malaysian projects - this will surely benefit him in no small way.
As matters stand, some Malaysians are questioning Abdullah Badawi for approving a sum of ‘RM99.7Million paid as compensation for 712 days of idling..’
The amount was almost 10 percent of the contract value - which is a familiar ringing sound to the ever present political tin can sitting discreetly on their table.
You hit the nail on the head in your last statement that the Bridge benefit the Malaysia more then Singapore - but you should have been more specific to say that the Bridge was designed to benefit the Malaysian politicians more then any other Malaysians.
Can there be any other interpretation for the decision by the ex-PM MM for insisting to unilaterally proceed with replacing the Causeway - even if it meant replacing the Malaysian half of the Causeway, and constructing it in a crooked form ?
Was it merely face saving to insist in building the crooked bridge without Singapore's agreement and going against all international conventions in such matters that concern two nations ?
The only plausible reason is all about financial benefits in the typical Malaysian way.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Seriously, do you think the Malaysian ex-PM MM wanted a bridge to facilitate access and departure of ships to and from their port at Pasir Gudang ?
Firstly, the Second Link Bridge is a natural barrier to any large size VLCC and the Container Ships attempting to sail through the narrow space between the vertical piers that support the Second Link.
Secondly, even at the highest point of the Second Link at Tuas, the span will allow only one vessel to pass through the narrow gap at any one time and in any single direction.
Is this an economical way of managing any commercial maritime traffic ?
Thirdly, from the maritime chart of the waters between Johor and Singapore - almost the entire stretch of water is too shallow for those VLCC shipping if it can manage to pass through the Second Link.
The proposed suspended bridge to replace the Causeway was mooted by ex-PM MM as his last hurrah project for the sake of posterity, and by the standards of the shady deals practised in Malaysian projects - this will surely benefit him in no small way.
As matters stand, some Malaysians are questioning Abdullah Badawi for approving a sum of ‘RM99.7Million paid as compensation for 712 days of idling..’
The amount was almost 10 percent of the contract value - which is a familiar ringing sound to the ever present political tin can sitting discreetly on their table.
You hit the nail on the head in your last statement that the Bridge benefit the Malaysia more then Singapore - but you should have been more specific to say that the Bridge was designed to benefit the Malaysian politicians more then any other Malaysians.
Can there be any other interpretation for the decision by the ex-PM MM for insisting to unilaterally proceed with replacing the Causeway - even if it meant replacing the Malaysian half of the Causeway, and constructing it in a crooked form ?
Was it merely face saving to insist in building the crooked bridge without Singapore's agreement and going against all international conventions in such matters that concern two nations ?
The only plausible reason is all about financial benefits in the typical Malaysian way.
Sounds very logical. You could be right. Bottomline is that the bridge does not really benefit Singapore and therefore the government is right not to proceed with the project.
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Who's to say they won't try to replace the Tuas Link ?
What are the current dimensions for the proposed new link at Woodlands ? Why must build so tall leh ? Cannot be bridge just above water meh ? Then no need be crooked already mah.. yes ?
Also.. there's the Sembawang Shipyards leh... right now.. with the causeway ah.. the water very calm hor ... .. ideal wat.
If later build bridge.. what will happen to the water condition ah ? I no marine and geology expert lah.. but ah.... just guessing hor ?
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Originally posted by Hbbo:
Sounds very logical. You could be right. Bottomline is that the bridge does not really benefit Singapore and therefore the government is right not to proceed with the project.
The Singapore Government was prepared to proceed with the Causeway Project - if ex-PM MM had agreed to resolve all the burning issues of water, railway, ICQ, air-space at the same time as the Causeway Project.Unfortunately, ex-PM MM was playing poker and thought that he had the upper hand in playing hardball with Singapore - and he failed.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Who's to say they won't try to replace the Tuas Link ?
What are the current dimensions for the proposed new link at Woodlands ? Why must build so tall leh ? Cannot be bridge just above water meh ? Then no need be crooked already mah.. yes ?
Also.. there's the Sembawang Shipyards leh... right now.. with the causeway ah.. the water very calm hor ... .. ideal wat.
If later build bridge.. what will happen to the water condition ah ? I no marine and geology expert lah.. but ah.... just guessing hor ?
Replace the Tuas Second Link Bridge ?Do you know how much the present bridge had cost, when the cost has not been recovered due to the light traffic flow since its opening ?
The new bridge to replace the Causeway was supposed to be a suspension bridge - similar in engineering concept to either the Penang suspension bridge or to the Golden Gate Bridge at San Francisco.
It has to be high above the water surface to justify the Malaysian's position that the Bridge must meet their goal for shipping to pass under the bridge.
Unfortunately, they fail to justify this nonsensical argument for ship to use the narrow Straits of Johor that separate southern coast Johor with northern coast of Singapore.
The Straits of Johor is not only narrow but also very shallow, with the deepest waters being on the Singapore side for most parts of the water way - that makes the narrow Straits even narrower for high volume maritime traffic flowing two ways, as the Johor side is too shallow for large ships to pass even during highest tides.
All the arguments for a Causeway Replacement Project is nothing more then a red herring for financial deals to be cut in another one of ex-PM MM mega-deals
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Replace the Tuas Second Link Bridge ?Do you know how much the present bridge had cost, when the cost has not been recovered due to the light traffic flow since its opening ?
The new bridge to replace the Causeway was supposed to be a suspension bridge - similar in engineering concept to either the Penang suspension bridge or to the Golden Gate Bridge at San Francisco.
It has to be high above the water surface to justify the Malaysian's position that the Bridge must meet their goal for shipping to pass under the bridge.
Unfortunately, they fail to justify this nonsensical argument for ship to use the narrow Straits of Johor that separate southern coast Johor with northern coast of Singapore.
The Straits of Johor is not only narrow but also very shallow, with the deepest waters being on the Singapore side for most parts of the water way - that makes the narrow Straits even narrower for high volume maritime traffic flowing two ways, as the Johor side is too shallow for large ships to pass even during highest tides.
All the arguments for a Causeway Replacement Project is nothing more then a red herring for financial deals to be cut in another one of ex-PM MM mega-deals
Who's idea was it for the second link anyway.. I read somewhere they are considering a third bridge connecting Changi to East JB. Now that woulda be a better idea in the first place eh ?
Straits of Johor too shallow and narrow ? Really ? Wow... what's the purpose of a "bucket dredge" ?
And I'v always thought they want something like the Panama Canal or Suez Canal .. man was I wrong.. :P
But to have a bridge with such height ...wouldn't the "approach" take up lotsa land to avoid a steep incline ?
Doesn't make much sense... if we hata perhaps have a S shaped bridge to make it work ?
Dang it.. I'd stick to our trusty Causeway and dig a hole underneath it for the water to flow through.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
The Singapore Government was prepared to proceed with the Causeway Project - if ex-PM MM had agreed to resolve all the burning issues of water, railway, ICQ, air-space at the same time as the Causeway Project.Unfortunately, ex-PM MM was playing poker and thought that he had the upper hand in playing hardball with Singapore - and he failed.
Of course, packaging these issues is a logical move. Since the bridge benefits Malaysia and not Singapore, there is no incentive for Singapore to proceed with the bridge unless there are benefits derive from other areas (such as water supply, ICQ, railway land). -
Originally posted by Hbbo:
Of course, packaging these issues is a logical move. Since the bridge benefits Malaysia and not Singapore, there is no incentive for Singapore to proceed with the bridge unless there are benefits derive from other areas (such as water supply, ICQ, railway land).Then why bother going to the negotiation table? Waste time onli.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Who's idea was it for the second link anyway.. I read somewhere they are considering a third bridge connecting Changi to East JB. Now that woulda be a better idea in the first place eh ?
Straits of Johor too shallow and narrow ? Really ? Wow... what's the purpose of a "bucket dredge" ?
And I'v always thought they want something like the Panama Canal or Suez Canal .. man was I wrong.. :P
But to have a bridge with such height ...wouldn't the "approach" take up lotsa land to avoid a steep incline ?
Doesn't make much sense... if we hata perhaps have a S shaped bridge to make it work ?
Dang it.. I'd stick to our trusty Causeway and dig a hole underneath it for the water to flow through.
The Second Link at Tuas was an entirely Malaysian idea - like the Third Link that they are proposing to connect Singapore's Changi area to the South-eastern area of Johor that will provide direct access to the very undeveloped areas of Desaru to Mersing, and the entire East Coast of Peninsular Malaysia.If you noticed, almost 90% of the Second Link falls on the Malaysian side, and only 10% of the Second Link bridge is on the Singapore side, and paid for and built by Singapore Contractors.
Do you know the length of the entire Straits of Johor that will need to be dredged ?
Do you know how slow a process a "bucket dredge" operate and the cost of continuously dredging the sea bed that keeps getting silted by the many large rivers that flow into the Straits of Johor ?
How many "bucket dredge" do you think will be needed to keep the newly cleared depths of the sea channels from being filled up again - especially when after moving to a new area, then the old area needs to be attended to again ?
The Suez Canal or the Panama Canal is a concrete water way that are operated by compartmentalised flood gates, operated in tiers to bring the vessel across a narrow isthmus.
The Thais had wanted to build such a canal across the Isthmus of Kra in Southern Thailand, and which they believe will be a very attractive proposition to the VLCC that travels from the Bay of Bengal to the South China Sea, and avoid the narrow Straits of Malacca.
This plan has been mooted since the mid-1980s, and this time they have been able to mobilised the financial support, but the engineering works have yet to be started, while the security situation in Southern Thailand remains hot.
The bridge that the Malaysian are proposing to replace the Causeway is supposed to be a suspended bridge, and to allow for ships to sail below - this suspension bridge will necessarily be sufficient high for safety and to be of practical use.
You are right that to mention that the approach roads leading to a bridge of such height will need to have some space to avoid a steep incline.
The approach for vehicular traffic has been catered via the newly opened Johor ICQ facilities that had the motorways all built and truncated due to the aborted bridge.
However, the paradox in the Malaysian position is that even as much as they wanted the Singapore Government to co-operate with their idea in replacing the Causeway with a suspended bridge - the Malaysian Government will also insist on having the little used Malayan Railway to continue its run deep into the heart of Singapore City and terminate at Tanjong Pagar Station.
The Malaysian Government will even accomodate this uneconomic insistence to continue with the unprofitable operation of the Malayan Railway into Singapore - even to the extent of relocating the entire Railway Station to a new location further inland, so as to allow the train to have a manageable incline up the suspended bridge.
The new location of the new Railway Station will be a few kilometers into the rural area - from its present location that is located within Johor Bahru city and immediately next to the Causeway.
All these uneconomic decisions show clearly that the Malaysian Government had insisted on their position based on purely political reaons - more then economics or even for financial reasons.
This is due to the Malaysian Government being faced with a "Catch-22 situation" in that if the Malaysian Government should terminate the rail service into Singapore, it will allow the Singapore Government to exercise a clause in the Colonial Agreement - which clearly state that when the railway service to Singapore is terminated, all the land - on which the rail run and where the train station is sited - will fall into dis-use, all the dis-use land will have to be returned to the Singapore Authorities.
To sweeten the deal, the Singapore Government had offered to the Malaysian Government a new site for Train Station to be located at the Woodlands ICQ, and which will serve as the natural and logical terminating and starting point of service.
The proposal was further enhanced when an offer was also given to the Malaysian Government for a plot of land be given in exchange for the total value of the land which is occupied by the Train Station and the land space on which the railway line is built on. This plot of land is to be located in the heart of the new Marina Financial Centre on the reclaimed land next to Clifford Pier and Shenton Way.
The package was given an added boost with the Singapore Government offering to develop this piece of land jointly with the Malaysian Government.
At the end of it all - this entire sordid affair is all about politics and the bad blood between ex-PM MM and the original MM in Singapore.
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Originally posted by Hbbo:
Of course, packaging these issues is a logical move. Since the bridge benefits Malaysia and not Singapore, there is no incentive for Singapore to proceed with the bridge unless there are benefits derive from other areas (such as water supply, ICQ, railway land).
Yes, it was a logical move - as the Bridge to replace the Causeway was an entirely Malaysian idea, and will feature financial gains for the Malaysian side only.While on the other issues that plagued the relationships between Singapore and Malaysia, these are issues that have mutual interests at stake in the successful resoluton to the price of water supply that will need to be ensured for the next 20 years and more; the air space for Singapore Air Force; and the resolution to the Railway Station that affect ICQ procedural formalities.
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This time it looks like it is final that the Causeway will remain as it is, and that there will be no straight or crooked bridge to replace the Causeway.
With PM Najib accepting the son of ex-PM Mahathir into the present Cabinet, his announcement will not see the same barbed attacks from ex-PM Mahathir that was given when the previous PM Badawi cancelled the "Crooked Bridge" project.
2009/06/11
Singapore keen on third bridge as 'crooked' one dropped
PUTRAJAYA, Thurs:
Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak’s idea of a new bridge to link eastern Johor to Singapore has been embraced by Singapore. The republic’s nod for the project was conveyed by its minister mentor Lee Kuan Yew during his meeting with Najib on today.
Najib said although no deadline would be given for the commencement of the project for now, once built the bridge would be the catalyst for rapid growth in eastern Johor and meet Singapore’s desire to increase its investments in Malaysia.
“Singapore is keen on having the third bridge and it is something which we (Malaysia and Singapore) will pursue,” he said.
Najib, who is also finance minister, said Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Tan Sri Nor Mohamed Yakcop had been asked to conduct a feasibility study on the project with his Singaporean counterpart.
They are expected to appoint a consultant and determine the projected cost.
Najib said the cost of constructing the bridge would be shared equally by both countries.
The third bridge, after the Causeway and the Second Link, would not only facilitate Johor’s development but also that of Rompin and Kuantan in Pahang as well as Terengganu.
Iskandar Malaysia, Najib added, would also benefit from the third bridge project.
The prime minister raised the new bridge idea during his visit to Singapore recently, on the grounds that eastern Johor was less developed and had huge potential.
He said the new bridge meant that the Causeway would remain as it is, and that there would be no “crooked” or straight bridge to replace it.
Singapore’s cooperation was needed to replace the Causeway, whose replacement it felt was hard to justify.
Najib, during a press conference after the 2010 Budget consultation meeting, was also asked on Lee’s meetings with leaders of political parties during his eight-day visit to Malaysia.
“There is nothing to it if he wants to meet anyone for a clear picture of the situation in the country. To him (Lee), the stability of Malaysia is closely related to Singapore, just as Malaysia’s success has an effect on the country,” he said. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
This time it looks like it is final that the Causeway will remain as it is, and that there will be no straight or crooked bridge to replace the Causeway.
With PM Najib accepting the son of ex-PM Mahathir into the present Cabinet, his announcement will not see the same barbed attacks from ex-PM Mahathir that was given when the previous PM Badawi cancelled the "Crooked Bridge" project.
Oh..the old causeway will remain ar??? wha lau,..u have to travel so far after JB to reach their immigration, so troublesome, turn here, turn there, me gal also got into accident 2 times liao, once hit people rear, the other time, someone hit my rear. Sebei cham!!! both govt think of own self interest only, never think about motorist conviences sake, and the bloody Singapore immigration is alway jam up for checking cars' booth, wha lau...I better follow Uncle Mas Selemat and swim over. Ask them dun need to build bridge lah, -
Originally posted by angel7030:
Oh..the old causeway will remain ar??? wha lau,..u have to travel so far after JB to reach their immigration, so troublesome, turn here, turn there, me gal also got into accident 2 times liao, once hit people rear, the other time, someone hit my rear. Sebei cham!!! both govt think of own self interest only, never think about motorist conviences sake, and the bloody Singapore immigration is alway jam up for checking cars' booth, wha lau...I better follow Uncle Mas Selemat and swim over. Ask them dun need to build bridge lah,Harlow sista.. you get to drive leh.. kao peh so much for what.
I see those auntie unkers have to WALK, and families with small children.. you got offer to tom pang them or not ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Harlow sista.. you get to drive leh.. kao peh so much for what.
I see those auntie unkers have to WALK, and families with small children.. you got offer to tom pang them or not ?
what is tom pang, kind of thai food again,...but i like tom yam.Those Uncles and Aunties save money mah, u think they no money to buy car or take taxis ah?? these uncles and aunties all very thrifty one, house and banks keep urn and urn of dollars and coins, our earlier generation have this so call saving culture created by govt for them to use in times of economy downturn. But it become a psychology factor for these Uncles and Aunties, they just keep saving and saving but never learn to enjoy life.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
what is tom pang, kind of thai food again,...but i like tom yam.Those Uncles and Aunties save money mah, u think they no money to buy car or take taxis ah?? these uncles and aunties all very thrifty one, house and banks keep urn and urn of dollars and coins, our earlier generation have this so call saving culture created by govt for them to use in times of economy downturn. But it become a psychology factor for these Uncles and Aunties, they just keep saving and saving but never learn to enjoy life.
Tom pang means.. Give them a lift lah.
I think we should build a travelator for the unker and unties.. and those poor families.
If the Malaysian side don't want to co-operate and connect it to their end .. never mind.. but we must first do our part.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Tom pang means.. Give them a lift lah.
I think we should build a travelator for the unker and unties.. and those poor families.
If the Malaysian side don't want to co-operate and connect it to their end .. never mind.. but we must first do our part.
Oh, I c, i thot u mean tom pang is eat tom yam then go pang sai, so called tom pang...now i know liao.Aiya, poor families go there for what, sometime i dun understand those poors, weak and old peoples, just stay at home and watch TV lah. No money mean no honey mah. No money still want to travel here and there.